Pissed! Ich breakout from RF Fish

[ezee]

Techreef,

Not trying to start a war, but I read that cleaner shrimp and wrasses help w/ ick, but can't rid a fish/tank of the parasite because they only can eat the parasites on the surface of the infected fish. Somebody who "sounded smart" wrote on another website that ich buries itself into the flesh of the infected fish, and therefore the cleaner shrimp/wrasses can't get all of them. is this right?

The only foolproof way I've seen to rid your entire display tank of ich is to capture and remove all of your fish to a hospital tank, and let your display tank sit fallow for over a month, thereby starving out the ich parasites still in the display. assuming you successfully treat all your fish in the hospital tank, you won't be reintroducing any ich to your display when you dump your fish back in.

Although I don't feel I am enough of an authority to be definitive, I would like to share another point of view that I have heard from a lot of reefers. If you equate ich with the common cold (not completely unrealistic); keeping it out of a reef tank is like trying to keep the common cold out of your apartment. Which is to say that, while you can do it, the requirements can be drastic (4-6 week quarantines, fallow periods, complete avoidance of ich prone species, etc.) and not entirely likely to succeed.

That being said, the other option would be to keep your tank and fish healthy. Do your maintenance, keep the water in good shape, feed your fish enough, minimize stress through good planning and be aware of what to expect. To take our real world example, no one tries to keep the common cold out of their home by quarantining their visitors, roommates for 4-6 weeks (at least I don't, as much as my wife would like that, lol). Instead you make sure your kids are healthy and their immune systems are the best they can be, make sure they take their vitamins, keep your air quality good with air purifiers, get enough sleep, brush their teeth, etc.

I personally can't say which is best but I thought it was good to post another opinion here.

E

 

[Deanos]

Interesting analogy, Ezee, but I think misleading. Our fish don't have to ride the train to work, entertain sick visitors or buy groceries at a supermarket. I believe, once they are in an ich-free tank, there's no way for them to 'catch' it, unless ich is re-introduced via tainted water or a new infected fish. A stressed or malnourished fish may suffer from other maladies, but ich wouldn't be one of them.

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

Dean:

I remember a study done several years ago that showed that ich was always present in our systems.

As far as cleaner shrimp and ich... The primary reason why fish die from ich is because they suffocate. Cleaner shrimp not only clean the fish's "outside" but they also get at the gills. In the process of them eating the external "cysts" they reduce the number of cysts that fall to the bottom of our tanks and thus reduce the "bio-load".

Like the common cold, ich is seldom fatal in the wild and fish can recover from it under the right conditions. In our systems they tend to die because it is an enclosed environment where they get exposed to a greater number of parasites.

-Alfred

 

[ezee]

Deanos,

Interesting analogy, Ezee, but I think misleading. Our fish don't have to ride the train to work, entertain sick visitors or buy groceries at a supermarket. I believe, once they are in an ich-free tank, there's no way for them to 'catch' it, unless ich is re-introduced via tainted water or a new infected fish. A stressed or malnourished fish may suffer from other maladies, but ich wouldn't be one of them.

Excellent point. My earlier post was not necessarily something I believed 100% in but I will counter, as I posted the opinion.

I believe your point is about the fish already in the tank but I was focusing more on the incoming contagion and the best way of addressing it. To be specific, if you always kept your family at home and never exposed them to the outside, my argument would be that it would be even easier to protect them from outside contagion. The only source of disease would be from visitors or new tenants, etc. which would make a strong immune system even more effective (of course natural innoculation is up for debate).

So it is definitely easier to keep your fish healthy if you don't introduce them to anything new. Unfortunately, that is not the case. We introduce new things all the time. Some people feel that to quarantine and go the whole 10 yards is a losing battle, that ich may still ride in undetected on rocks, coral, etc. (even with a 4-6 week QT). So from their perspective it is better to make the health of your fish and your overall system your number one priority.

There! Now with that said, I can tell you that I actually believe in both. I strongly believe in quarantining your fish but I do think that it is really difficult to completely be sure and keeping your fish fighting strong is a very effective strategy, as well.

E

 

[Deanos]

There! Now with that said, I can tell you that I actually believe in both.

:shhh: I'm playing devil's advocate :sgrin:

 

[DRZL]

intersting thoughts guys,

The stuff ive pulled up cryptocarion is actually divided on those both trains of thought. Personally, I am very hesitant to destroy my tank, take out my fish, and keep 9 fish in a 10G QT i have, and have nothing in my tank for 2 mths.

The chances of me QT future fish that are coming in are good, the chances of me QT'ing every frag/coral/rock that comes in my tank that it can lie dormant in in fear of ich is low . The garlic seems to be working at the moment, and shrimps are prbly my next move.

Interestingly enough, my tanks pig, the mystery wrasse has no ich on him-zilch, hes the only fish that actually eats the garlic bits.

Hmmmm

 

[ezee]

Deanos,

:shhh: I'm playing devil's advocate :sgrin:

lol Me too! Halfway, anyway.

E

 

[wxl14]

I have ich in my tank but my fish are fine. I have five cleaner shrimp in my 90 gallon they do a good job. This week I am going to change my substrate. SO i will be draining all the water changing my filters and putting in reef base sand. Hopefully the changing of the substrate and filters should take care of most of the ich. but other then that my fish have been fine with ich in the tank.

 

[grknyer]

I buy all my fish from Bill and Chris. All my livestock in my tank is from Reef Fantasy. I have never had a problem. I always ask when the fish come in. If they just got there don't buy them. Give them a couple of days to get acclimated. If they are there when you go back in a few days great. Then you BUY! Make sure you look them over 110% and that they eat. Imagine the stress they face from the time they are captured to the time they make it into the store to, finally "your tank" only to be nervous and be harrased by other fish. I learned the hard way in the past where I had lost about 100.00 dollars worth of fish(not from RF) in one shot due to ich. Bottom line buy yourself a seperate tank and qt all your new arrivals. This is common practice in all aquariums around the world. If they do it why should'nt you? They qt them for at least a month and so should you! I DO ! Patience is a must in this hobby!They also have uv sterilizers. I have seen them just as recently as this past summer when I was at the mystic aquarium.


SO REMEMBER

IF YOU DON'T QT YOU'RE A DEE DEE DEE!!!!!!!!

 

[KathyC]

I will admit that I am not up to speed on disease treatments in reef tanks, but I do know a lot about ich itself. Can't imagine it's a different issue than in FW tanks, but unfortunately the treatment that is most successful in FW cannot be used in a SW tank.

Not sure who pointed it out on here, but it is true that it is always in your tank. Fact. Period.
Aside from introducing a new fish to your tank that is already infected with ich, STRESS is the leading cause of outbreaks, so keeping your fish as healthy and as unstressed as possible is the number one defense. Proper tank maintenance, little to NO temperature swings, water changes, appropriate feedings, etc...are all key points.
QT is a mandatory necessity if you are purchasing new fish.
Bring a magnifying glass to the store with you - look closely at the fins on the fish. This is the first place you will usually notice the tiny white spots that indicate ich. If the store has a problem with you doing this - shop elsewhere.
Garlic...I've read so much about this aspect...the majority of fish keepers (with an opinion on it) feel that garlic does improve the immune system of your fish. I agree, so if yours enjoy it, by all means feed it to them. Unfortunately, it won't do a thing to rid your fish of ich.
Someone mentioned that fish are more inclined to attract ick when they are sleeping, so the lights should be kept on. Beg to differ on this...but the opposite is true.
In FW tanks when ick is present we do a few immediate things to get the situation under control: THIS IS FOR FRESH WATER, DO NOT USE IN SW TANKS!!!: We turn OFF the lights. This is to keep the free swimming ich from finding a 'host' (your fish). If the ich can't find a host, it will die. We also turn up the temp to 82/83 degrees. This shortens the lifespan of ich (it's lifespan during the free- swimming stage is 3 days). We also add salt to the tank which aids the fish by reducing stress and helping the fish build it's slimecoat which may aid in less cysts attaching to the fish. There are times when the infestation is so bad and is impacting the gills of the fish that salt dips are used, but these are very stressful to the fish. Mostly, we do water changes, lots & lots of water changes to reduce the number of ich parasites in the tank. When giving folks advice about ick, I usually try and help them through it without the use of chemicals, because it is better for the fish & the biological filter. For serious infestations Formalin is used, but again this only works during the free swimming stage. (carbon must be removed if this is used in a FW tank)

I believe it was Alfred who mentioned that ich is seldom fatal in the wild, again, that isn't the case with our glass boxes. The closest we can duplicate what happens in the wild is through water changes. Being a newbie to SW, I don't know if frequent (think every other day or daily) water changes are ill-advised in a reef tank (all with knowledge of this -please chime in here) but they do zero harm in a FW tank. Water changes will lessen the number of free swimming ich parasites in your tank. Period.

The UV filter is a very good idea because it works, but again, it only kills during the free swimming stage. (Make sure the UV sleeve is clean and the bulb is new!) The idea of the neon gobies/shrimp picking off the cysts is terrific as no one has yet to come up with a way to get the cysts off of our fish. And unless there is much disagreement on the water changing suggestion - I would do that too. The pita part is you have to keep this up for a solid 14 days

BTW- the cysts are what you actually 'see' on your fish when they have ich. They are capsules that have hundreds of ich parasites growing inside of them. These capsules feed off your fish, then drop to the bottom of your tank where they each release these hundreds of ich parasites - hence the issue of this becoming a severe issue in such a short amount of time.

One last thing...fish with finer, thinner scales like Tangs are more inclined to get ich as it is easier for the cysts to attach to them. Other fish with thicker, heavier type scales are less inclined or seem never to get it.

Hope this helps!!

And if you ever want to discuss HLLE, I know too much about that one too...

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

First, hope the rest of the your livestock live through it.

Well, Qt is very important thing to do as a second defense (selecting the healthly live stock is first) and then keeping your other live stock in good health is as important. If all(most) of your live stock has a major problem with this outbreak of ick, try to analysis if your system has some flaws somewhere which you may have over looked. It could help save the rest of them.

 

[Deanos]

My favorite article on Ich:

Marine Ich - Cryptocaryon irritans

A few excerpts:

"Colorni (1987) first suggested that marine fish could acquire some immunity to C. irritans by surviving several infections." Wooohooo!!

"Freshwater dips are generally ineffective in the treatment of marine "Ich" infestations. Trophonts burrow deeply into the epithelium where they are generally protected from external influences. Colorni (1985) found that even after 18 hours in freshwater, infected fish still have trophonts attached in the same positions as they had held before the freshwater treatment. The trophonts later detached and completed their life cycle as normal." Poor fishies :sad2:

"Stress and poor water conditions do not cause marine "Ich", although they will lower a fish's resistance to infection and impair their immune system. If C. irritans is not present in a tank, it doesn't matter what how stressed a fish may be, it cannot get infected. In a tank where parasites are present, stressed fish are more likely to show signs of "Ich" before more healthy fish, but the healthy fish are just as likely to become infected as the numbers of parasites increase. Those fish species that are less susceptible to "Ich" or those individuals that have an acquired immunity, may show no signs and may not get infected."

Ooooh :tongue1:, and wait till you get to the part answering the eternal question: "Is "Ich" always present in our aquaria?"

 

[marrone]

Not sure who pointed it out on here, but it is true that it is always in your tank. Fact. Period.

This isn't true, even though there have been studies going both ways. If ich was always present in your tank, your fish would eventually shows signs of it, specially since tank is a closed system. Your fish would eventually be over come by the ich, specially as the population of ich grows in the tank, and most likely die in the long run from it. This is not to say that you're fish may not be carring other diseases or parasites.

Bring a magnifying glass to the store with you - look closely at the fins on the fish. This is the first place you will usually notice the tiny white spots that indicate ich. If the store has a problem with you doing this - shop elsewhere.

Most of the time you can't see ich on the fish at the LFS, even with a magnifying glass. The fish may actually show no sign of ich and look very heality. The ich will also attack the gills and the fish will start to flash in the tank or stay infront of a power head, with the gills open. Also a cloudy eye maybe a sign of ich. Remember it takes 7-10 days for ich to work it's way out of the fish body, so you mayn't see any ich spores at the LFS.

Someone mentioned that fish are more inclined to attract ick when they are sleeping, so the lights should be kept on. Beg to differ on this...but the opposite is true.

If you have an ich in the tank it's doesn't really matter if the lights are on or off, the fish still can and will get infected. What does happen by leaving the lights on, or lights on near the tank, is that the fish don't go to sleep and keep them activity. This will help them keep up their resistant and let them fight off the ich.

 

[DRZL]

bad F'N news,

and i am pissed off to a T,

my mystery wrasse is DEAD!

 

[Tonyscoots84]

:sad2: damn!!!! sorry to hear about it kid... hang in there it gets worse before it gets better...

 

[DevIouS]

bad F'N news,

and i am pissed off to a T,

my mystery wrasse is DEAD!

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

Actually, ich is not present in our "aquariums" at all times, it is present in most aquarium fish at all times.

The study I had read basically said that under normal circumstances the immune systems of our fish keep it in check. When they are put through stress it weakens their immune systems and they are no longer able to keep it in check and the fish develops an outbreak which spreads.

-Alfred

This isn't true, even though there have been studies going both ways. If ich was always present in your tank, your fish would eventually shows signs of it, specially since tank is a closed system. Your fish would eventually be over come by the ich, specially as the population of ich grows in the tank, and most likely die in the long run from it. This is not to say that you're fish may not be carring other diseases or parasites.

 

[marrone]

Actually, ich is not present in our "aquariums" at all times, it is present in most aquarium fish at all times.

The study I had read basically said that under normal circumstances the immune systems of our fish keep it in check. When they are put through stress it weakens their immune systems and they are no longer able to keep it in check and the fish develops an outbreak which spreads.

-Alfred

The problem with that is ich is a parasite and not a disease. So in the wild a fish may have ich but it works through the fish body and then falls off. Since it's in a large body of water the fish can keep the ich down to a point where a healthy fish can deal with it. In the home aquarium if ich is present, it will just keep multiplying and the fish will get more and more infected. The ich itself could cause the fish to become weaken and eventually the fish will die from the ich. Remember if the fish has ich it still must go through the cycle of moving through the fish, falling off and then into the free floating stage before reattaches to the fish.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Sorry to hear, mystery wrasse is one of my favarite too.

If you have an ich in the tank it's doesn't really matter if the lights are on or off, the fish still can and will get infected. What does happen by leaving the lights on, or lights on near the tank, is that the fish don't go to sleep and keep them activity. This will help them keep up their resistant and let them fight off the ich.

It also has to deal with how long before the free swimming ick can find the host fromt he time they come from the bottom of the tank. Therefore, if the fish is not sleeping or hanging around the bottom of the tank, where there are abandance of the free swimming ick, they are less likely to attract ick. Therefore, a lot of the times, by using a high power canister filter, provided you set it up correctly, will help to reduce the number of free swimming ick and crysts during an outbreak of ick.

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

Ich is not a disease, but parasites have a constant war with the immune systems of their hosts.

-Alfred