• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Well, where in the hell do I start with this one.?

As promised to the lovely LIRA crowd after my recent presentation at Atlantis MarineWorld, kindly hosted by Joe and his ever faithful team, I said I'd put this up on MH....so here goes.

To be honest, looking back far too many years to be comfortable with, Ive always had a driving passion for not only maintaining captive organisms and replicating natural conditions as closely as feasibly possible. But also in finding ways to understand the many methods and adaptations that various organisms have at their disposal to not only survive under certain conditions, but positively thrive. On one hand we have what we consider a range of ideals for an organism, and on the outer margins we have the extremes (as we see them).

What has always fascinated me though is whether those extremes are actually 'extremes' to the organisms present, or just another area that they can cope with just as easily, no matter how alien it appears to us. In fact I often think that in certain 'extreme' situations, the adaptive abilities of 'one' organism isn't the only key to its survival in that location. The coming together of various organisms adaptive mechanisms may be the key factor in what holds it all together. Another words, maybe its not so much the environment controlling the organisms present, Maybe its more a case of the organisms controlling and creating a local environment that meets their needs.

And that I suppose is where this mad cap idea came about.

Its been quite a few years now that Ive been hankering to try and emulate one niche area of the reef environment that has eluded a few and been largely ignored by the masses for various reasons, be that sheer engineering impracticality, assumed biological incapacity, or simply the common theory that it simply cant be done. Which is of course, The Inter-tidal reef flat zones that are found in only a few locations around the globe. IE those areas that whilst exposed at low tide to the elements, still seem to have a profusion of coral coverage despite the seemingly impossible conditions that those corals are exposed to on a range of occasions from sporadic to regular, dependent on tidal phases and lunar cycles. Whilst coral coverage isn't always present in exposed areas (far from it in fact) there are a few locations where conditions allow such diversity and its these areas that Ive been most interested in.

Although Inter-tidal phases and exposure times have been used and tried in various commercial applications not related to the reef or coral trade, as far as I'm aware there are very few cases of anybody successfully maintaining a private closed system that houses tidally exposed corals. so I thought, what the hell, lets give it a go and see what happens.

I'll state now that in no way whatsoever am i under any illusions of success with this venture. Its more an experiment into the viability of such a system in the hands of a private Aquarius, and what can be learned from that success or failure.

Whilst seeing what happens to the 'corals' is interesting, that isn't the only reason for this venture. I'm hoping to learn several other lessons in the course of the experiment 'if thats what you want to call it' that may help answer some questions, or offer avenues of further investigation by those more qualified than I.

What i will do at this point is offer my sincere thanks to various fellow speakers and respected professionals from the talk circuit who have helped me tremendously up to this starting point, be that by way of advise, passionate encouragement, correction, and 'on occasion' much needed gentle ridicule when Ive gone off the deep end and completely missed the obvious, or made huge assumptions..(thanks to Charles Delbeek there specifically) So its with no small amount of humility that i say, whilst the initial idea and much of the designing has spouted from my much confused and over ambitious brain...If it wasn't for the knowledge and support of these guys, i wouldn't even be at this stage, and it would still be some far of pipe dream. So if there was ever a reason to get up out of the comfy chair and go see the speakers that you guys have flitting around over there, inspiration and knowledge must surely be it...

back to the subject at hand...:eek:

As i was saying, despite the interest in how any corals present would react to tidal exposure phases within a closed system and all the hurdles that throws at you, I was also interested in the biology of the environment, how it would be maintained, and what benefits could be gained by pushing certain aspects further.

One area of both consideration and 'I feel' valid interest, is 'coral mucus' as a nutrient export mechanism. Whilst its well known that coral mucus has a surprising ability to trap organic material, its not an area that has been heavily investigated or utilized within closed systems to any degree higher than accepting its inherent presence within a system housing corals. What I'm interested in, is whether the inherent increase in mucus generation brought about by exposure can be combined with the mucuses natural buoyancy under such conditions to transport bound nutrients away from the main display on an incoming tide to an area 'or areas' specifically adapted to remove or take advantage of that nutrient/food source.

The second area I'm interested in, is just how beneficial that concentrated food source could be in enhancing certain 'already utilized' filtration methods such as remote deep sand beds, and specifically 'but far less commonly used' sea-grass beds.

Thirdly, I'm interested in the net results of such methodology and other avenues in way of returns back to main system in the form of higher diversity and planktonic loads as a more natural food source beyond that added to the system...in basic terms...its an effort to get closer (even just a little bit) toward that holy grail of increasing available food on a more constant basis, whilst still keeping nutrient levels down to a minimum, more on a par with natural conditions, but without the need for artificial means or additives. In short...offering a more complete cycle within a closed system, not just in nutrient terms, but in biomass and diversity as well.

Fourth and finally. can that cycle be pushed far enough that stability is increased, whilst nutrient 'export' becomes secondary to nutrient assimilation and recycling..The net result of which is 'hopefully' that water changes become more of a means of trace element replenishment, rather than a nutrient export route, and mechanical filtration such as the skimmer become a tweak rather than a major player.

I will say now though that I'm not trying to create some kind of all enclosed loop of self sufficiency...thats not the goal even if it was possible 'which it isnt'...Its mearly a case of trying to get closer to replicating and combining several aspects of the reef environment that commonly arnt linked in closed systems and what improvements 'if any' can be gained by such methods.


Obviously the corals are a main focus. and whilst exposure may lead to better coloration (or worse) the main focus would be to ascertain at close quarters what criteria determine which species can and cant cope with the conditions. what the energy demands are of corals subject to these conditions or if those demands can even be met....and whether it really is a stressor to them, or just another aspect of daily life that they can adapt to over time with little detriment.

More to follow...including drawings etc..

regards..
 
Last edited:

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
So to continue. here are some pretty pictures..

The main area of focus.

Exposed reef flats at low tide.

It should be stressed that the low tide images you see here (credit to those who took the images is due here as they arnt mine) are not nesseserily representative of a daily occurance...In many cases the lowest tides and subsequent exposures may happen only seasonally, and at night when light saturation doesnt represent a danger. There will be however, certian areas that are subjected to more constant tidal rises and falls where corals are more frequently exposed, even if the level and duration of exposure does change slightly dependent on the lunar cycles..(more of that later and how its accounted for in this system)

exposed%201.jpg


exposed%202.jpg


exposed%203.jpg


exposed%205.jpg


So thats the areas and situation Im looking at emulating..

More to follow.
 

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
So the first hurdle was how in the hell i was going to shift a large chunk of my display volume in and out, and where in the hell I would store it during the low tide phases. Now if you've seen images of my tank room, you'd know that i haven't got that much space...(small room filled with a big tank and lots of Kit....so after pondering having a tank on the flat roof above the main system (bad idea in hindsight considering the constant loading and unloading of the wooden beams with a large volume of water) i did ponder shunting it up into a tank in the bedroom which is just above and across from the main tank....bad idea again....I just got 'that' look.....

Eventually, i sat down and thought 'inside' the box rather than out of it you might say and came up with the following idea using the existing display tank.


Intertidal%20High%20sm1.jpg



Looking at the image above you will notice that there are two plates added to the existing display which create two sections (one on either side) Its these sections that will be used to transfer volume to and from the main display creating a tidal rise and fall. By pumping slowly to and from these sections via a controller a variable tidal shift can be simulated, not only with varying depth, but duration as well.

Initially i did ponder just how much volume i wanted to shift and settled on about 1/4-1/3 of the main display volume by putting in two partitions that would great two sections equal to 1/3 the tank volume. Both sections are linked by a common balance pipe running underneath the tank to balance them out and water is moved via two pumps to a nd from the main display...one running incoming tide, the other running the outgoing tide.

the following images show the tank at varying levels...(the one above is just shy of high tide)


Mid phase...

Intertidal%20Mid%20sm1.jpg


Low tide phase..

Intertidal%20low%20sm1.jpg



And just because it looks cool...heres some corals..

Intertidal%20corals%20sm1.jpg



Now, you might be wondering, why only 1/3 or 1/4 of the volume..?...Well planning ahead i had to consider the 'what if' scenario...ie what if it is a success, and corals grow out effectively within the inter-tidal region. Well obviously, corals displace water volume over time as they grow. whilst the volume of water being moved remains pretty much a constant. so i had to consider the fact that over time, it may be the case that as corals grow to fill out the inter-tidal region, then the volume displaced will cause an even greater effect on the level within the tank, so allowing for that, it was decided that only 1/4 - 1/3 would be moved initially which could equate to nearly 1/3 -1/2 of the volume later on as the incoming water fills a smaller available area that has now been displaced by coral growth.

The other thing to consider was what would happen if there was a power cut ?....In a system using a raised remote tank, with a passive slow drain back down, a power cut would mean that the system always defaulted back to a high tide situation as water drained passively back down.

In this situation though that cant happen, so a small pump has to be used on a UPS to cut in and 'force' a high tide in the event of a power cut. once filled up, the level would just sit high at weir level until it comes back on-line again.

I then had to consider the sump and filtration.

At low tide the main display would be running independently of the rest of the system, effectively cut off from the sump. Although this might seem a bit risky at first, I considered the fact that any low tide phase would only be of a fairly short duration anyway (about 6 hours max) before coming back up to flow to the sump again via the weir...

I did consider an elaborate floating weir assembly that would rise and fall with the tide, offering a permanent flow back to the sump, but on further consideration i thought this too risky and settled for a short break in tank to sump flow during the low tide phase.

AS you can see in this image. whilst the tank is at low tide, water is simply transfered from the main display (cutting flow over the main weir as it drops) into the two end compartments which (after filling ) gently overflow back to the main tank on a constant cycle whilst running. this constant slow loop stops water in these two sections stagnating during the low tide phase.

Intertidal%20overflow%20sm1.jpg


conversely, the high tide phase is simply a reverse where the previous pump is turned off, and water is pumped slowly by the second pump back into the main display.

The difference here is that the weir is at a slightly lower level, so as water rises with the subsequent expelled coral mucus, water starts to flow over the weir to the sump, at this point the rising sump level triggers a double float switch which fires up the main return pump. this then starts the main body being circulated through the sump system, to the tank and back again.

Wier%20High%20tide%20sm1.jpg


More to follow.
 
Last edited:

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Oh crap Simon's been drinking again:banghead:

Seriously, fascinating project and very interesting and complicated questions you are posing Si. Please keep us posted... as if we have any choice :biggrin:

:biggrin:

Thanks Randy.....I dont think its so much 'having a drink' thats the problem....i think its more a case of suffering repercusions of a mis-spent youth..

It was a pleasure meeting your at Atlantis and MACNA!!! Keep us posted on your progress!!!! I hope your complicated system works!!!

Hi Reef Reaper.....

Honestly the pleasure was all mine. you guys were a superb audience.

As for the system, fair enough, its not conventional, but wouldnt say its complicated as such..Agreed the biology is a huge area of debate, but the mechanics of the system are in fact quite simple. One of the aims of this exorsize is to see if this type of environment can be replicated feasibly and reliably within the confines of your average to moderately large system with remote sumps etc.


regards
 
Last edited:

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Moving onwards, the next area of attention was the sump system (or to put it better) convertion of my current tower sump assembly which has proved invaluable in such a confined space.

Sump%20assembly%20sm1.jpg



Little will change in this respect. My old system still ran both DSB, Cryptic zone, and a cheato bed which are aspects that i feel have served well. Additionally this time though, i wanted to increase the potential and add in new features /environments. firstly, the addition of a fairly high flow rubble zone which would form a good environment for larger critters. And secondly the addition of an algae turf scrubber. This was debated to be honest, but i decided to go along with it anyway....one reason for this decision was that i'm expecting the intertidal zone within the main system to become a haven for turf algaes anyway, such is the nature of these environments. and whilst some controls will be in place in the form of aggressive grazers, I thought that adding the turf scrubber remotely may steal somewhat slightly from the main system, thereby holding it back slightly. this will remain to be seen, but if the space is there, then why the hell not. Of course the other davantage of the turf scrubber and cheato bed is that i can run these on a reverse cycle to limit pH suppression, especially in the case of the turf scrubber.

Under normal circumstances, the efficiency or benefits of a remote refugium or seagrass bed are largey praised, as long as the volume balance between these areas and the display is viable. In fact many would say that for ultimate efficiency, you would idealy have a ratio of at least twice the display volume set asside as a refugium or seagrass bed. There are even quotes of 6 x the display volume with referance to the viability of recycling waste and taking up nutrients with the aim of generating enough live food to supply the main display at levels getting somewhere distantly close to ambiant natural levels. (think of a 600 gallon refugium feeding a 100 gallon tank)

Meanwhile....back in the real world....I just dont have that luxury, so it leaves me in the typical situation where the display is the larger volume, whilst the filtration system takes up proportionatly less space. But as ever i like to look at things from a slightly different perspective. Dr Ron makes note in his ramblings on substrate diversity about the strong links between substrate type and size and those organisms present..how certain organisms are attuned to relatively narrow margins of acceptability where grain structure and size are concerned. To me, it makes sense that this should be extended out of the confines of fine substrates into corser layers, rubble zones, differing algal areas, light, dark, high flow and low flow areas. If the aim of a live filtration system is to utilise varying sizes and types of waste material to convert a proportion back into viable biomas in the form of planktonic lavae, then by deffinition we should aim for as greater diversity as possible. But to do that, we have to offer diversity of habitat as well.

This goes one step further in my opinion. It is well known that many corals (whilst being veracious preditors) do show a preferance for certain food types/sizes over others. This applies especially to SPS whose polyp size from species to species can vary massively. In such cases the food that is passing such a coral is effectively filterd, with food types that are too big or of the wrong type being ejected back into the water column in preferance for other more applicable morsels. The hypothisis here is that by offering a more diverse array of habitats within a closed system, we can offer a wider veriety of live food types generated within the live filtration system. We commonly assume that coral mortalities in the presence of other healthy corals is mearly a factor of light or flow...could it possibly be that we are simply not supplying the applicable food types/sizes that that particular species of coral needs, becouse we are running a live filtration system that is too restricive in its nature and limits the diversity of microfana to just a few species.?

To that end, the final addition to the fitration chain is a seagrass bed. As before space is at a premium, so some compromise was required and I finally settled on a long but narrow tank that would sit on the window sill of my tank room next to the main sump tower. This tank would be approximately 5ft long by 12" wide offering a long narrow channel for water to flow down, across any substrates and through any seagrasses present. additionally this tank will also run in a tandem tidal pattern with the main system. draining down to a lower level when the tank level falls, and rising again with the tank at high tide.

Seagrass%20tank%20flow%20sm1.jpg


The function of this tank is quite simple in that when water is flowing to the tank, there are two exit points. one lower down that is restricted to a trickle so a head builds up. this head of water (high tide phase) then climbs and reaches a point where it is allowed to flow out through an unrestricted pipe further up. As water stops being supplied, the level within the tank starts to fall eventually settling at the lower exit point height. (low tide)

The reason for this desighn is simply that i wanted to replicate conditions found in many lagoonal seagrass areas where there are periods of good flow and high tide, interspersed with periods of lower water levels and more stagnant conditions.

What i'm curious to see here is whether the lowering of the water level and a short stagnant phase has any beneficial effect in driving coral mucus exported from the main tank over the weirs into this area, down into the substrates present and whether that concentrated food source has any effect on the microfauna or algae present. During high tide phases, wave generation within this tank will be accomplished by way of an MP10 Vortech pump to keep the grasses well circulated and moving so they recieve even light saturation from natural sunlight entering this area.

This is how the Seagrass tank will be added to the existing sump.

Sump%20and%20seagrass%20sm1.jpg
.

more to follow.
 

Bob 1000

Advanced Reefer
Location
Staten Island
Rating - 100%
122   0   0
I can't wait.. I don't see this happening well in a closed system for several reasons, but would love for this to work for you.. Keep up the good work.. Think long and hard about every step..
I'm loving the Seagrass tank:wink1:
 
Last edited:

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Cheers guys.

Bob, lets be clear, Im under no illusions here, Ive got no idea if it will work myself, but i'm realy interested in knowing the why's and hows of whether it does or doesnt.



Moving on again. Hydrodynamics were a crucial consideration in this system as i had to factor in the need for strong enough flow to rid the surface and exposed corals of accumulated mucus on an incomming tide. Luckily I already have 4 x sequence 10,000lph closed loops on the system in the following configuration.

(the four outlets at the bottom, are powered by two of the pumps, whilst the end oulets are fired by the other two)

aquascape%20wave%20sm.jpg



aquascape%20current%20sm.jpg


With the addition of the two sections at the ends of the tank, the outer pumps will become redundant. So i decided that Id run 1 pump per outlet along the front. The outlets of which can be angled in various directions with the pumps timed randomly through an IKS controler to give a wide veriety of flow directions, durations and cumulative force.

Additionaly to this, I also wanted to replicate a good degree of wave action. After pondering this for some time and arguing with myself over my dislike for wave boxes or internal pumps, It was on a visit to the Aquarium of the Pacific during the IMAC-WEST weekend in LA that a group of us stumbled across a funky plunger system on a behind the scenes tour that was coupled to thier large Kelp forest tank.

305.jpg



Although in this case the plunger was a good 3ft across with a stroke of about a foot or more. It was working on the side of a tank containing 142,000 gallons, and the wave action was impressive to say the least. It was the action and method of shifting such a small relative volume that got me and a few others thinking, so after playing with some ideas and running a few tests, I eventually came up with the Baby-Plunger which is the item you see plumbed to the back of the aquarium in the previous drawings.

plunger%20and%20tank.jpg



Plunger3.jpg


The apperatus is in fact very basic. Simply a cylinder that sits either within the tank partially submerged, or run remotely, but sited at a level where the plunger is equal to the main body level whilst at rest. A variable speed high torque motor drives the plunger up and down within that cylinder by way of a rocker arm. this then pushes and pulls water up and own within the cylinder, causing transference of fluid to and from the main aquarium which once dialed in at the correct frequency, sets off a standing wave.

In my case the water level varies, so it was simply a case of extending the piston and cylinder lengths to get a longer stroke that covers the entire range of water depths present.

The drawing above is only the initial draft so it will change slightly over time with further investigation and testing. Ive already considerd switching from a direct drive to a pully drive to save the motor in the event of any problems where the piston seizes. If its desighned correctly witha minimal piston to cylinder clearence, the assembly should be pretty much self cleaning.

Although changing the frequency is well known to cause single, double or multiple waves, What surprised me most during tests on a 25 gallon water vat was the fact that altering the position of water displacement also caused vastly different wave patterns. Also surprising was just how little volume displacement and 'effort' was required to build quite a considerable wave motion.



The following series of vids are all using a cylinder equal to 0.17% of the total net volume. which is simply pushed up and down at a rate that sets up a standing wave in line with the volume. Altering the timing and the position of the displacement alters the effect of the wave.

In this case a 2" x 3" tin of Lynx deodorant (not including the lid)....so never let it be said i'm not inventive....prepare yourselves for..."The Lynx effect"

Single wave running lengthwise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIpIicz5_H4


Double wave at twice the frequency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugIcbh8V688

Front to back wave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6K26aB1A9w

A 45deg wave that runs opposing corners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtqtdMAdEm8



And this one is to highlight just how little displacement is actually required once you get your timing right. I was quite surprised by just how little effort is needed and how effective such a small volume of displacement could be compared to some of the cumbersome apperatus out there that use much more energy and have to shift much larger volumes to geta similar effect.

This is using a cylinder of just 1.25" x 2.5" equal to 0.06% of the net volume.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GPxgi9pi-s

I decided i wanted a front to back wave rather than an end to end, becouse the narrowing nature of the tank as you move backwards would cause an increase in wave effect towards the back of the tank over any exposed corals. Add this to the 4 closed loop outlets shunting water upwards and back as well and you have the potential for some good surge.

So thats where things stand at present.

Tank stripdown and rebuild starts next weekend and there are a thousand different jobs and trials to undertake so updates will come as things progress.


Regards
 
Last edited:

Bob 1000

Advanced Reefer
Location
Staten Island
Rating - 100%
122   0   0
Love the wave simulation with the cylinder idea.. I will be trying this in about 6 months.. I'm curious how it would work in a tank with very turbulant water movement... I've read a lot of post and article syou've written and I hope all goes well.. Always happy to see different people thinking outside the closed system, so to speak,,lol.. I also think that corals being exposed to air in the evening to night hours when the sun is very minimal to none is what allows this to occur with no ill affects on the corals..
 

KathyC

Moderator
Location
Barnum Island
Rating - 100%
200   0   0
Very interesting approach Simon !

Read the thread but might have missed these questions/answers..does your sump tower take the place of a skimmer? Does it provide enough oxygenation for the tank?

Will there be any fish in the system?

Is there any aspect of where this occurs naturally that you won;t be able to closely duplicate in your tank?

..and do you have another tank that you can just sit back and enjoy? :)
 

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Very interesting approach Simon !

Read the thread but might have missed these questions/answers..does your sump tower take the place of a skimmer? Does it provide enough oxygenation for the tank?

Will there be any fish in the system?

Is there any aspect of where this occurs naturally that you won;t be able to closely duplicate in your tank?

..and do you have another tank that you can just sit back and enjoy? :)

Hi Kathy.

to answer your questions..

The sump tower runs in tandem with the skimmer (Reeflo 200 which after Ken's talk at Macna im not interested in upgrading..:tongue1:) from the main overflow (its tapped off so i can direct flow in both or either directions.. This means i can choose how much water runs to the skimmer or to the sump tower (surface skimmed water that flows directly to the skimmer simply ends up in the return section at the bottom of the tower.)

As for gas exchange, its very very good. between the tank and the bottom of the sump tower there are 2 weirs, and 2 pairs of Dursos that the water has to run through as it passes via each section so it gets a hell of alot of gas exchange. (my pH usually stays around 8.3-8.4 over 24 hours despite running a big Calcium reactor 24/7).

As for fish, I'm keeping much of my existing team with a few omissions that I feel just wont appreciate the conditions. The main focus though will be to include the sorts of species you would commonly find in these shallow intertidal zones...certain Tangs, algae blennies. smaller to medium wrasses, gobies, smaller chromis and the odd sociable damsel etc. the heavyest emphasis/priority will be on grazers though, rather than decorative species that simply 'add load' rather than serving a beneficial niche in the nutrient chain.

I think there is scope to replicate just about any factor of these environments to be honest, from breezing the corals to fresh water showers. To start with though, im going to concentrate on the main factors of air exposure duration, light exposure/spectrum, hydrodynamics, and nutrient pathways. if i can get that right, then who knows, i may just decide to pick on a single coral one day and actually give it a shower to see what happens.


As for other tanks, sadly no...I'm an all or nothing guy it must be said....Ive tried multiple tanks many years ago but i always seemed to let one or the other fall asside slightly, so these days I tend to keep it to just one tank (all beit with different combined regions making up the whole) that i can give 100% attention too....I suppose in a way, that may be the reason why i like doing things a bit differently...its not to prove anything as such...its more simply a case of cramming enough challenge into a single system so that it keeps me busy and exited.

I suppose you 'could' say that i allready run several tanks at a push, becouse I tend to treat and care for each individual tank/biotope within the filtration system as a seperate issue..although they all share the same water body, they are all very very different environments that need seperate understanding and care.

regards
 
Last edited:
R

reefclown

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
SI, interesting project, realised this is your main forum and have hence reposted
smile2.gif


curious on 3 levels.

1.
Irritation to other corals only occures when slime is produced as a response to physical contact/irritation, at which point it becomes a carrier for discharged momatocysts which is where the problems arrise if it comes into contact with other corals etc. Slime produced as a protective coating without physical irritation doesnt have this trait. (also whitnessed in my own aquariums over the years during water change shedules).
you commented on this system (([URL="http://www.reefland.com/rho/1105/feature7.php)"]http://www.reefland.com/rho/1105/feature7.php)[/URL] a few years back when we commented at Jaggys(foam man's on UR) problems, we have all learnt alot since. Steves is one of earliest forum documented hobbyist mucus induction examples that i have experienced. How does this significantly differ from what you are looking to achieve in terms of the type of mucus expelled, especially in context to DOC pathways?

2. Wave production has recieved alot of attention over recent years, dump systems, vortech's, tunze wavebox e.t.c.

What benefits does the mechanical plunger have over and above those that exist? are there any drawbacks? Why the dislike for waveboxes?

3. As you are moving into another adventure, can you share the final learnings from your last system ? do we get to savour some final pics
smile2.gif


have fun
N
 

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
SI, interesting project, realised this is your main forum and have hence reposted
smile2.gif


curious on 3 levels.

1.
you commented on this system (([URL="http://www.reefland.com/rho/1105/feature7.php)"]http://www.reefland.com/rho/1105/feature7.php)[/URL] a few years back when we commented at Jaggys(foam man's on UR) problems, we have all learnt alot since. Steves is one of earliest forum documented hobbyist mucus induction examples that i have experienced. How does this significantly differ from what you are looking to achieve in terms of the type of mucus expelled, especially in context to DOC pathways?

2. Wave production has recieved alot of attention over recent years, dump systems, vortech's, tunze wavebox e.t.c.

What benefits does the mechanical plunger have over and above those that exist? are there any drawbacks? Why the dislike for waveboxes?

3. As you are moving into another adventure, can you share the final learnings from your last system ? do we get to savour some final pics
smile2.gif


have fun
N

well looking through that tank article, a couple of things stand out that basically negate any seeming similarities although it is a fantastic system imo.

1. Im not using a carbon source to boost bacterial takeup of nutrients with the aim of 'removal' from the system...In my case, i'm interested in the utilisation of nutrients by using the natural fluculant properties of coral mucus to transport that waste to areas where it can 'feed' other organisms that give back to the plankton load...how much that will happen, I have no idea and neither does it seem has anybody else, which is why Im trying it..

2. Re the type of mucus generated....In both situations I'd hazard a wild guess that in both cases a similar mucus type is generated (hence the reasons he doesnt have issues with stinging)...Irritation by physical contact ie handeling and predation is different to irritation caused by air exposure or bubble contact becouse there is no chemical trigger to generate a stinging response. But the main difference is, that my mucus will be taking up nutrients and other material from right at the water surface on both incoming and outgoing tides which is where the highest proportion of waste is alledgedly attracted. whereas his corals take up material that is in the main water column (no exposure to the miniscus layer). is one method better than the other? I have no idea...I have a hunch that my method may be more efficient at working the most poluted water layer, but thats just a guess....Time will tell.


The last significant point i would make...." weekly 25% water changes"......with that amount of water changing going on, I often ponder whether the water quality is a result of the water changes, or the methodology of waste control.? I'll leave that for others to debate.



As for the old system. I'll bang up some of the last photo's taken when i get 5 min..

Edit to include a couple of final update links about the old system.

http://www.reef-eden.net/2006_Reef_15.htm

http://www.reef-eden.net/2006_reef_16.htm


The long and short of it was that I had a combined fail of an RO membrane and a faulty TDS meter that meant the system went through a very severe decline over the last few months...initaiily i thought it was temperature related...what with me traveling around and various other issues, it was some time before the real cause of the issues was traced even though I battled it (in the wrong way as it turned out) , by which point i decided that rather than trying to pull a severely polluted system round, It was an ideal time to try something I'd been hankering over for a considerable time. hence the reason to split it down and rebuild now rather than later...I still have a lot of my old stock in holding, but the rock and sand has all been dumped due to contamination.

Theres a full write up going in the next issue of Reefs magazine where a few of us decided it was about time some articles were done on tank disasters, why they happen, what you can do to limit the possibilities and what to do if and when they happen...(about time there was some open admission of..."I f****d Up")

As for the results prior to this misshap, then im pleased to say that in the two years it was running up to this point, I couldnt have been happyer with the results from all angles, diversity, chemistry, nutrients etc....all were well within ideal ranges, so Id have no reservations doing it again or recommending the fake Lr route to anybody else.

Re the plunger...
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>2. Wave production has recieved alot of attention over recent years, dump systems, vortech's, tunze wavebox e.t.c.

What benefits does the mechanical plunger have over and above those that exist? are there any drawbacks?
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Well, ive highlighted much of that in the thread but to elaborate.

1. With the correct motor and gearing you can effectively drive the assembly from a 12v motor, saving quite a considerable amount of energy over some pump/box based methods.

2. The apperatus can be mounted remotely or within the top of the tank, but both methods offer the minimum amount of risk to lifestock (no impellors for things to get chewd up in) and all the mechanics are out of the water...safer and less maintanance.

3. the apperatus is infinately variable from duration of stroke to length of stroke (ie volume displaced) which is one up on some methods that only offer a variable frequency and no variation of volume displacement...effectively, the longer the stroke is, the bigger the wave for the same frequency...and no increase in energy demand (unless you get all anal about it)..

Its certainly not the be all and end all of wave generation (far from it in fact) becouse it doesnt offer 'circulation' as such. so other circulation devises are a pre requisit. but it allows you to seperate the two into differing roles at differing times. Sometimes you may want wave surge and circulation (incoming and outgoing tide), at other times you may just want a gentle laminar flow and no wave surge...It simply offers scope of environmental changes and variations.

Its still very much on the drawing board at present, but a first sample should be on the cards by mid to late December if all goes well. The acrylic is due to arrive in the next few days and the inner tank panels that will create the displacement chambers for tidal simulation should be with me by the end of next week...If all goes according to plan, I should be testing the tank and tidal ranges with just water by the end of december and the Wave Plunger at around the same time.


Regards <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
 
Last edited:

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hold onto your panties folks, your gonna love this..


Right, I'm now at stage 2...(the tank modifications are nearing completion so thats that bit nearly done) as per images below.

High tide..(empty side chambers)

Wier%20High%20tide%20sm1.jpg


Intermediate..

Intertidal%20Mid%20sm1.jpg


Lowest tide. (full side chambers)

Intertidal%20low%20sm1.jpg




And an image showing the plunger plumbed through the back panel.

plunger%20and%20tank.jpg



This is where it gets interesting...I've now built the main plunger assembly which has a barrel diameter of 150mm and a length of 450mm, also the piston and push rod etc. (just minus the motor and rocker arm at present) so i decided to give it a try in a test tank (read: bathtub) to see what would happen.

well, the first attempt didn't quite go as planned. :tongue1:

I filled the bath to about 6" shy of the top, put the plunger in there and started pumping up and down at a rate that started generating a standing wave from one end to the other. after about 10 seconds I had a good 4-5" wave going with a stroke of about 4-5"....So being the brain-box that I am, I decided "hey, Ive still got an inch or so to play with so i gave it some more, and gave it a few bursts at a good 12" of travel...

Result...a monster wave that dumped a gallon or so of water all over the bathroom floor....lesson learned...it shifts some serious water..( i wish Id had a surf board)

For test two. I drained a bit of water out of the test tank (read: bathtub) and tried in a little more controlled fashion, with a stroke of about 6 - 8"

The results you can see hear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4T25H1w1tM

and a bit closer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyCsGYlqW1Y

So at this stage...im quite eager to get this completed, plumbed to the tank and testing by Christmas on a pre run a wet test.


What I'm interested to see is how the narrowing shape of the tank affects the wave as it travels front to back rather than end to end...I have a hunch that the wave will be accentuated toward the back due to its narrowing nature, whilst dispersing more as it travels back toward the wider area at the front.


more to follow soon.

regards

<!-- / message -->
 

Euroreefer

Advanced Reefer
Location
Bronx
Rating - 100%
166   0   0
That plunger system is amazing! The whole Idea is really out of the box and exciting to see! Great work man! I cant wait to see it in action.:splitspin
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top