Skimmer Thread

[jackson6745]

Fritz stay away from the zeo forums. The answer to all the questions there is a bubbleking and Coral Vitalizer.

The ATI is pulling about what the MRC driven with a mag 24 did.

Still no where near the performance of the first skimmer on the first page of this thread

 

[jackson6745]

I must say that I am absolutely sick of Deltec skimmers and the guys who use them. How the *uck can you prompte such an expensive $hittty skimmer?? Guys who like Deltecs run an AP702 or larger(big $$$)or run a smaller deltec and never had a good skimmer to compare against. Deltec is a POS.

Sorry for the outburst guys but I had too much to drink and I just read numerous threads on RC and ZEO about how great Deltecs are when I have seen them all in person and know they suck. Air is Air. Buy a freakin flow meter and see what you're getting for the big $$ with Deltec and compare.

 

[alrha]

sounds like someone had a little too much nog tonight

 

[fritz]

Honestly I'd like to see another option in skimmers. Deltec, H&S and ER are all pretty much the same now. The ATI /Bubblemaster a/k/a Bubbleking clone is reportedly unreliable and suffers from frequent part failures, namely the shaft and threadwheel from balancing issues caused by using lower grade materials than the bubblekings. Becketts are great but I'm not about to put one in my living room, nor am I going to drill the floor and commit to an extra 300watts of pump. What's a reefer to do?

As to the "air is air" comment I don't think that is 100% accurate.
It reminds me of the "light is light" argument from a few years ago when people used to use "watts per gallon" and try fluorescent lights on their sps. I'm not sure what the X factor is, maybe bubblesize or contact time but it's more than raw LPM of air. For example, I skim better with less air than I do with more air on my particular skimmer. Further, I think skimmers have a sweet spot of air/water ratio that may change from tank to tank. If just "more air" made every skimmer better than when I injected air into my skimmer it would have skimmed better and it did not. It would also skim better with the tap all the way open and it does not. I've checked this many times with an air meter and it does pull more air wide open, rather than slightly closed.

Deltecs/DAS are great in that they are very "set it and forget it." They break in in under 12 hours (My Experience) and require no further adjustments other than cleaning. Is that worth $300 or $400 for a grey "Deltec" sticker? No. ERs are mostly priced close to the deltecs. H&S are cheaper (varying with each model.) I've heard that ATIs/Bubblekings take about 4 weeks to fully break in. They are very temperamental to oils and other additives. Simply putting your hand in the tank (I've heard) will shut down a bubblemaster for a day or two. If true, that's not my kind of skimmer. I'm also scared of the number of revisions that they've made and the reports of needing replacement parts.

Ugh, which brings me back to the beginning and "I'd like to see another option in skimmers." It would be great if there were a lower flow, perhaps air injected beckett allowing it to be used in stand. Oh well

 

[Tonyscoots84]

I cant wait to get my BM 250 :biggrin:

 

[jackson6745]

Fritz, I spent some time staring at your deltec at Chris's house. I just don't get it. It skims like crap and it costs 1G. Calireef "had" the same model wich also sucked.

Air, ability to adjust foam, cost effectiveness make a good skimmer. As far a contact time, most of these skimmers have big bodys so that really isn't an issue. Although the H+S design really does limit contact time yet it is still praised. Until you slap 2 Eheims on a Deltec the performance is really not that great. Only problem is when you do so the cost goes through the roof.

It's still too soon for me to make a final decision on the bubblemaster but so far I have not had part failures and I am putting 40lpm into that skimmer. Putting my hand in the tank will collapse the foam for 20mins. Lets not even bring BK skimmers in this since you will have to spend over 2G to own the smallest model.

No one ever says I bought my Deltec because I didn't have a choice. It's always some sort of fluff to justify the rediciulous cost of a mediocre performing skimmer that is way overrated.

Nothing personal fritz. U still da man!

 

[loismustdie]

No one ever says I bought my Deltec because I didn't have a choice. It's always some sort of fluff to justify the rediciulous cost of a mediocre performing skimmer that is way overrated.

Me and Rich had this exact same discussion last night. I can honestly say that Deltec is by far the worst built and uses the cheapest materials out of any other skimmer in it's class. Do you know what the difference is between Deltec and DAS? Nothing more than the pump. It's still the same crap material and the same crap build.
Listen, I'm not going to act like one of those "doomsday" guys in regards to extruded acrylic, but a skimmer which costs well over $1000 and is designed as external... I feel the least they could do is gimme some cast.
I won't even talk about BK.
I pulled more skim in 1 day with a beckett than I did with 10 days on the Deltec. It drives me crazy to go through threads where Deltec are being praised. If they were acknowledged as the POS they are, they wouldn't be so trendy. Without that silver sticker, I'm sure they would only be regarded as "okay".
Obviously, I am now a Beckett man. Having built a few skimmers, I really do feel there is a difference between types. I don't feel a skimmer is nothing more than water and air in a tube.
I've had an ETSS, ER, and Deltec on my tank. This used, banged up, leaking beckett is outperforming them all. The cost is in the electricity though. I also have it in my basement, so I don't have to hear

 

[fritz]

I was really considering switching to a bubblemaster after seing some pics of their last revision in action, plus 40lpm is just nuts. For us reefers where using a beckett isn't an option I think ATI could be a great alternative. I'm just going to wait a while and see if you have any issues first

Deltec makes a great skimmer but as Chris mentioned their markup is insane. The AP600 is exactly the same as the DAS EX-1, barring some possible slight modifications to the NW. (They both pull the same LPM by the way.)

I think where people can get off track on skimmer conversations is the phrase:
"In it's class"
Well what's "in it's class". Do we mean similar sized skimmers that run the same way or are we talking dollar for dollar? I like to talk in terms of dollar for dollar because it brings efficiency to the discussion. It's like if we're talking about fast cars, a Road Runner with a Hemi is possibly best in class but if we're talking about getting from point A to point B I'll take a 1200CC Ducati over a Road Runner Hemi any day.

Using that logic, basing the comparison on amount of skimmate for your investment, deltec is not the best buy. DAS or H&S would be a better expenditure for a skimmer. Although this still brings me back to "I wish there was another option for skimmers"

As to the "Protected by Deltec!" Threads, I've seen some GONZO tanks running deltec equipment. There's even a few RC threads where people have ridiculously (IMO) undersized skimmers and have great sps tanks. Where's Solby? He needs to get in on this conversation

 

[meschaefer]

If only DAS had customer service.

 

[loismustdie]

Fred, by "in it's class", I'm talking about the skimmers that get the lemmings drooling and following up posts full of ooohhh's and aaahhhh's. (a guy buys a Deltec, pucker up and kiss that ass, a guy gets an ER, okay... nice skimmer) The skimmers that, when people see you have one, you are automatically granted the status of someone who knows reefing. Being advanced. The skimmers that people think if you have one of these, you'll never do a water change again. The skimmers people think solve all water quality issues by themselves. I don't feel this brings us off track at all. If someone is looking for performance, shouldn't they know that you can get the same out of cheaper models than more expensive ones?
I know 4 guys with BK. Only one has an impressive tank.
I have yet seen a Deltec that has shown me that they are worth the cost.
Fred, as you and I have discussed, skimmers are nice, but there is so much more to reef keeping. I've seen quite a few impressive tanks wich are "underskimmed". I'm not running my Becket anywhere near it's fullest potential. You can check out my pics and tell me if it's good enough or not.
Well, I guess we've gone off topic a little bit here. You see what drunk posting has done, Rich? I like this topic though. Can we bring the discussion to a new thread in an attempt to keep this thread clean?

 

[spykes]

hahha chris and rich you guys just like to be the rebels in this hobby. Im sure in your corner too chris. Thou i didnt pay 3G for my Bk it performs to the few bills i did pay for it. Deltec sucks. DAS is ehhh. Im gonna add a 4th pump into that baby. It looks like it needs it. RIchie give me back my AIR meter.

Comming soon DAS EX-4

 

[herman]

Rich, stop the whining and go back to the beckett!!!!! You know you want to. Insulate and soundproof the closet and stick it in there. Noise issue solved.

As far as things sucking I have to strongly disagree. I cant say that my AP702 sucks. True that the H&S is better built but I am very satisfied with my POS.

Its like the Dailyseas unit. Do I want one? Hell yeah!!! Do I need one? Nope! There are far cheaper ways of achieving the same objective.

Beckett vs Deltec is like comparing Shellby Cobra, Ferrari 599. Both awesome cars. The Cobra produces in excess of 600hp and the Ferrari does not. Both have history etc etc but you know what, Ill take the Ferrari. Not every body would.

Personally I think this skimmer thread has gone to ****. Instead of listing advantage and disadvantages it has turned into a Deltec etc sucks thread which clearly they dont. Clearly $$$ spent seems to be a big issue here but what some seem to forget is that to one man $100 is alot while to others it is not. What ever happened to staying objective?

 

[cali_reef]

Do you know what the difference is between Deltec and DAS? Nothing more than the pump. It's still the same crap material and the same crap build.

The built quality on the three DAS I had my hands are all crappy, they are in the same POS class as MRC skimmers.

The Deltec's craftsmanship is not bad, the material they use can be better for what they charge for them. They do use similar material on the body but the build is way different, can't compare the two at all.

I had said the Deltecs are not worth what they charge for, thats after using one for 24 hours. I said the same thing after using the BK for a week. The best value for plastic in all the skimmers I've used and\or tried will have to be a Barr Beckett, but there are just too many other issues with running a big a$$ motor for twin becketts.

 

[Pedro]

Silly question, but what the heck.

We always try to get as much air into the skimmer as possible. But we also want the bubbles to be as small as possible. So then we restrict the air a bit to make this happen. Now my question is this. Why do we do this if in fact we are now losing some air at the expense of finer bubbles? This is something that drives me nuts when i am trying to fine tune my skimmer. I just feel like i'm cheating myself.

 

[jackson6745]

Pedro, that is a very good question. I don't have an answer for a NW skimmer but with a beckett I would use a large pump and just "crack" the injectors a little so they suck in the air through the smallest opening possible giving me a "mist" of bubbles in the body. If I ran the injectors more open I would get more turbulent larger bubbles and would have to lower the water level in the skimmer to prevent flooding. This type of skimmate would gather crud up the body of the skimmer and it wouldn't skim as well. This would give me the tiny bubble all the way up the neck and give me a nice dark brown/black skimmate, and a lot of it.

 

[Pedro]

See i just choked up my air intake and the turbulence went down a lot. That is because i just made the bubbles smaller. So i guess that's a good thing. I take it that the skimmer is probably still pulling the same air, but since it's forcing it through a smaller hole then it's more like misting as you mentioned. I think i see where Fred was arguing about the LPM theory.

 

[jackson6745]

Yeah but if you are restricing more air to make smaller bubbles you will still get more bubbles than restrictingless, NO?

 

[spykes]

restricting the airway will create more turebulence

 

[Pedro]

I'm all confused. When i restrict the air, the column up the collection cup gets more stable and the bubbles are smaller. When i open it up then they bounce all over the place and the bubble size increases. But like i said, they bounce around in all directions. I am lost here. I mean even though it's restricted, there's still plenty of air in there. Here's a pic of the column with the restriction.

 

[cali_reef]

restricting the airway will create more turebulence

More like restricting the air intake will increase the water flow through the pump and sometime causes more turbulence if the pump outlet is not designed properly.