Hawaii Collection Bill

[StevenPro]

"Steven, the voluntary unsuitable species list USL, never suggested that expert hobbyists should be denied access to USL species."

Wayne, how in the world are you, or worse yet the government, going to define expert aquarists?

 

[JeremyR]

I do somewhat question a couple of wholesale fellows who have said here that the moorish idol is easy to keep. I wish it was. Where are all the success stories? How come I don't personally know one single person with a long term idol? Of course there are a few out there.. but it's not nearly common enough to call it easy or even moderate. Whether or not they should be banned, I'm personally not selling any until I see reason to do otherwise. Same with orangespotted filefish.. if ORA starts selling aquacultured ones that eat dry food, fine.. otherwise I'm not going to bother.

As far as yellow tangs go.. pretend it's a food fish, and manage it accordingly. Banning or extremely limiting collection because it's pretty is not particularly defensable. If it was dinner, and 2.5 million dinners had been exported (if that's the real number) then nobody would even care as long as there were enough left to continue a sustainable harvest of dinner.

 

[StevenPro]

Exactly, manage the ornamental fishery exactly like one would a food fish. Is collection sustainable or not?

 

[naesco]

"Steven, the voluntary unsuitable species list USL, never suggested that expert hobbyists should be denied access to USL species."

Wayne, how in the world are you, or worse yet the government, going to define expert aquarists?

The concept was simple. LFS and wholesalers would voluntarily not import fish on the USL. If a hobbyist like Matt (who felt he had the expetise to try to keep a USL fish) wanted a orange spotted he would go to his LFS and specially order one.
The intention of the list was to stop LFS from filling their tanks with cleaner wrasse and the like.
The concern at the time was that unless industry did something on a voluntary basis that eventually the government would step in.

Industry chose to do nothing and continues to do nothing with the result that IMO the OBAMA government will come down hard on the industry.

Sad, eh!

 

[Anonymous]

Without data, internet or otherwise, this is all he said/she said and will get us nowhere - as will arguments to authority without documentation/support.

The polarizing of this issue not only helps make any discussion almost useless, it is also an inaccurate reflection of reality. For instance, many people with experience think some kind of reasonable collection of Moorish Idols is fine as some of them do seem to do well in captivity.

I would really like this issue to continue to be discussed, but if it degrades we will lock the thread. Please, everyone, I know emotions are high here, but we may have a chance to have an actual discussion, without heat, that could benefit everyone.

Thanks.

Thales many people with experience including anyone that has written anything about marine fish would never agree that there should be any sort of collection of Moorish Idols.
Who are the 'people with experience' you are talking about.?

Most of the entities/authors mentioned earlier in this thread have a disclaimer about the difficulty keeping these animals, but don't say they should never be collected.

Wayne, it is simply not the case that "ANYONE that has written ANYTHING about marine fish would NEVER agree that there should be ANY sort of collection of Moorish Idols". Your quote is one of the polarizing, extreme kinds of statements that is factually inaccurate and only serves to make the discussion combative rather than inclusive. The issue is very complicated, and while I understand the desire to distill it, it just isn't that simple.

My question was very simple. Please name the people with experience you speak of. Another poster listed some of the well known authors and their opinion.
Nothing combative here.

And it was already answered. See bolded above. The previous poster listed an incomplete/inaccurate/oversimplified version of their positions.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, yes, Obama has little else on his plate, and so has plenty of time to get to regulating that awful aquatic ornamental industry. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

The purpose of the USL was to discourage loser LFS and wholesalers from importing fish that had no chance of survival in hobbyist tanks.

Thats pretty much why no one really embraced the idea of an USL - asking business that already don't care to voluntarily limit their their possibilities seems pretty clearly like something that won't work.

Industry did nothing to stop this practice and tonnes of USL fish died.
Fortunately hobbyists educated themselves through reef forums and courageous marine fish authors and IMO importing USL fish has virtually stopped. For example, years ago Moorish Idol were commonly seen for sale in Vancouver LFS. I have not seen one for sale for years because hobbyists knew not to buy them. On many occasions in the past I and others complained in front of other customers when they were for sale.

So the whole thing was a success? You'll stop bringing it up now?
There are still not great LFS that bring them in. Don't use Vancouver as your measuring stick for the industry.
However, the state of the economy seems to be forcing the kinds of businesses that don't really care what fills their tanks to go out of business. Many of the not great shops in the SF Bay area are vanishing. Even the infamous LFS whose business model is based on cut flowers isn't bringing in as many of the iffy fish, though many of their husbandry practices are still questionable.

 

[Anonymous]

On a somewhat related note, did any of you hear about Matt Pederson's work with the orange spotted filefish. This is a fish that many people would argue should be left in the ocean. But, Matt has several pairs that he has trained off of corals and onto a prepared diet. And not only that, but some of his pairs have spawned and he even successfully reared some babies! Matt is not working at some public aquarium somewhere or a University. He is just doing this as an avid, dedicated hobbyist. But, if those fish had been placed onto some sort of do not collect list, he would not have been able to do this work. He would not have been able to even try.

Matts great. Mofib is great.

We see the same thing with some cephs. At the very least, the information gleaned by hobbyists have very much slowed the importation of adults where eggs can be collected - though recently we have seen the import of some species eggs that get very/too large as adults


I think access to the wholesalers via online sales can really help here. Trying to place an 'order to collect' through the LFS has been often cumbersome, frustrating, and fruitless in the past. With direct communication with the importer, it is easier to actually get oddballs that you are looking for.

 

[Anonymous]

However, the state of the economy seems to be forcing the kinds of businesses that don't really care what fills their tanks to go out of business. Many of the not great shops in the SF Bay area are vanishing. Even the infamous LFS whose business model is based on cut flowers isn't bringing in as many of the iffy fish, though many of their husbandry practices are still questionable.

Oh no.. what about FinalPhaze's shop, then? In Hayward (I've gotta go through my pm's, I'm pretty sure he linked me to the site). He hasn't been online in some time now. I hadn't had a chance to visit the shop, but I believe it's his father's and they focused on koi, but also have other fish offerings. I hope they're doing alright.

 

[Anonymous]

However, the state of the economy seems to be forcing the kinds of businesses that don't really care what fills their tanks to go out of business. Many of the not great shops in the SF Bay area are vanishing. Even the infamous LFS whose business model is based on cut flowers isn't bringing in as many of the iffy fish, though many of their husbandry practices are still questionable.

Oh no.. what about FinalPhaze's shop, then? In Hayward (I've gotta go through my pm's, I'm pretty sure he linked me to the site). He hasn't been online in some time now. I hadn't had a chance to visit the shop, but I believe it's his father's and they focused on koi, but also have other fish offerings. I hope they're doing alright.

I am not sure which shop that is.

 

[naesco]

Oh, yes, Obama has little else on his plate, and so has plenty of time to get to regulating that awful aquatic ornamental industry. :lol:

There are zillions of young OBAMITES just itching to change the world.
And Industry just sits and continues to do nothing waiting for the axe to fall.
Sad, eh!

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne, so, as far as you're concerned these "young Obamaites" are ready and waiting to hit the biggest problem in your mind, that being the aquatic ornamental industry? What with Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, homelessness, health care woes, unemployment, a housing crisis, a credit and banking crunch, failing automakers, and people who want to not be arrested for smoking pot also waiting in the wings, what we really have to worry about is the aquatic ornamental biz?

:lol: I'm sorry, but come on, don't you see how that's just completely laughable?

East Bay Koi. Their site is still up at least.
http://eastbaykoi.com/

 

[Anonymous]

East Bay Koi. Their site is still up at least.
http://eastbaykoi.com/

No idea what freshwater speciality shops are doing.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, yes, Obama has little else on his plate, and so has plenty of time to get to regulating that awful aquatic ornamental industry. :lol:

There are zillions of young OBAMITES just itching to change the world.
And Industry just sits and continues to do nothing waiting for the axe to fall.
Sad, eh!

But you said earlier that things, at least in your area have changed.

 

[oceanfish]

From Bob Fenner, WetWebMedia, "Avoiding Bad Choices: Saltwater Animals That Are Commonly Offered in the Trade That Shouldn’t Be, and Suggested Alternates"
"But, I assure you, having "lived" the trade for forty some years, studied and written in it all this time, that there are indeed very poor choices that are made every day… in collecting, wholesaling, retailing and consumer-buying of poorly suited species in our interest.　

Some Grievous Examples: Fishes

Pinnatus Batfish…

Labroides/Cleaner Wrasses:

Moorish Idols"

So you have Bob Fenner and Keiron Dodds writing that Moorish Idols should be left on the reefs. Let's not forget the cleaner wrasses, either. The list of unsuitable species is long, and it doesn't matter if a handful of talented aquarists are able to keep some alive. The VAST MAJORITY are dying and that simply is WASTE of a precious resource.
If 2.5 million yellow tangs fed families and communites we wouldn't be having this discussion. We're talking about wild animals used as pets and entertainment.
If your neighborhood was filled with aesthetically pleasing birds, so much so that people came from around the country to see them, but then someone decided they wanted them for themselves as pets and started capturing them until their numbers were noticeably and significantly down, and then you learned that they ALL die within a very short period of time and none of them live out their full natural lifespans... get the picture?
FYI, it's illegal in the U.S. to export native wild caught birds.
45% of Hawaii's top 20 targeted aquarium fish are endemic to Hawaii. Two species, in particular, used to be quite common on Kona reefs, the Bandit Angel and Hawaiian Turkeyfish, but they are now rarely encountered. This information came from the State marine biologists charged with "managing" the resource...
I share this information because you have been led to believe that Hawaii's aquarium "fishery" is well managed. This simply is not the case. Again: unlimited extraction for $50 a year.

 

[Anonymous]

After our experience diving on Guam, most of it from a beach on one of the bases that allowed zero fishing, I believe I can say that the disappearances of fishes on the reefs can likely be, in large part, be caused by fishing, even from shore. The numbers and varieties of fish, the overall health of the reef on the non-fishing beach compared to fishing beaches was unbelievable. I took no counts, but it was noticeable enough to everyone we spoke with who'd dived other areas of the island.

My point is that degradation of species cannot be blamed solely on the aquarium trade, not if there's also fishing allowed in these areas.

 

[StevenPro]

oceanfish, do all of us a favor and write to Bob Fenner asking his opinion of an unsuitable species list? Should be very enlightening and entertaining.

 

[naesco]

What don't you understand?
Everyone who is in industry knows which fish are almost impossible for hobbyists to keep. Many of them refuse to import them or sell them.

Every experienced hobbyist knows the same.

Passages from Robert Fenner have already been posted and it is clear that he does not want these species sold.

Oceanfish is a new poster to this forum. If you don't understand what Fenner writes, you phone him!

 

[oceanfish]

My point is that degradation of species cannot be blamed solely on the aquarium trade, not if there's also fishing allowed in these areas.

Actually the studies conducted in Hawaii looked specifically at the impacts of the aquarium trade, and found significant population impacts. As I explained earlier, most of the nearshore species are not fished for. Aquarium collecting has significant negative impacts. Look up Tissot and Hallachers Kona study - it's right there in black and white.

Another Hawaii study just showed that it is, in fact, extraction of species that causes species numbers to decline. Not land based pollution, not tourism, not global warming - extraction does it. When the species that are missing are the ones targeted while other species are there - it's not rocket science. Look up what Williams and Walsh, et al recently published.

 

[oceanfish]

Yellow Tangs commonly live for 20 - 30 years on a reef, and 40+ year olds have been found.

Where are you getting this information? It has been my understanding that the average life expectancy for most reef fish was around 7 years.

That information comes from a Hawaii study by Parrish and Claisse: Post settlement life history of key coral reef fishes in a Hawaiian Marine Protected Area network.

Pretty amazing infomation. Most Yellow tangs on a protected reef will outlive your pet dogs....