Hawaii Collection Bill

[spawner]

Unlimited, free for all, extraction for a $50 annual permit. No size limits, no species limits, no bag limits, no limits on the number of permits available: Regulations Florida has had in place for 20+ years.

Of course Hawaii residents and tourists want this stopped. Our most BEAUTIFUL reef fish are dissappearing.

I don't really think that people would be upset to see some reasonable management scheme developed. But there is nothing in this bill that would do that. It reads like most of the past bills have read. It seems to be constructed without a lot of thought or logic. Why not simply propose to create some sort of management scheme. You noted FL regulations. They are far from what needs to be in place and have done little to "regulate" fishing pressure. But it is a frame work. Hawaii has been a free for all and seems to want to stay that way. The Big Island has a lot fewer spearfisherman on it as well. Go to any market on Oahu or Maui and you'll see a lot of your reef fish on ice for ready to be cooked. That is one good decision FL has made, if a species is collected for the aquarium trade itss required to be landed live. That greatly reduces the number of "aquarium" fish being sold in local food fish markets. Do you have landing numbers for the number of "aquarium" fish being caught for food?

With all due respect to the bill writer(s) they need to get some consulting help to craft an effective logical bill. Just putting words on paper with the idea of saving the reefs is not effective if it gets shot down every year. I'm happy to put you in contact with some of the Florida FWC folks that have worked on Marine Life issues for years.


Thanks for coming on the board and sharing your thoughts.

 

[Anonymous]

Very true Andy. Many of the collectors I have spoken with keep spearguns on board for dinner

I don't really think that people would be upset to see some reasonable management scheme developed.

I whole heatedly agree Andy. I don't see anyone saying not to regulate, just do it wisely

 

[oceanfish]

No internet "data" there - those numbers are from State collection reports. RGBmatt is one of 87 collectors reporting Statewide. He's also one of several who said that Moorish Idols "do just fine". So I guess that means that Bob Fenner, Keiron Dodds, the folks at the AMDA, Aquariumpros, MarineDepot, LiveAquaria, and everyone else who's experience says they should be left in the wild are just a bunch of "reef huggers" with some sort of hidden agenda.

 

[Anonymous]

Without data, internet or otherwise, this is all he said/she said and will get us nowhere - as will arguments to authority without documentation/support.

The polarizing of this issue not only helps make any discussion almost useless, it is also an inaccurate reflection of reality. For instance, many people with experience think some kind of reasonable collection of Moorish Idols is fine as some of them do seem to do well in captivity.

I would really like this issue to continue to be discussed, but if it degrades we will lock the thread. Please, everyone, I know emotions are high here, but we may have a chance to have an actual discussion, without heat, that could benefit everyone.

Thanks.

 

[oceanfish]

Do you have landing numbers for the number of "aquarium" fish being caught for food?

There are really only two species that are significantly targeted by both fishers and collectors: the Achilles Tang and the Kole (Goldring Surgeon).

Historically, there are 18 species that are the most heavily collected: Yellow Tangs, Achilles Tang, Kole, Forcepsfish, Orangespine Unicornfish, Chevron Tang, Moorish Idol, Fourspot Butterfly, Potters Angel, Milletseed Butterfly, Whitespotted Toby, Psychedlic Wrasse, Teardrop Butterfly, Ornate Wrasse, Spotted Boxfish, Yellowtail coris, Cleaner wrasse, Whitespotted Toby.

So you can see, very few are food fish.

For every Moorish Idol that someone was able to keep alive for 1 year or two, how many died? If the vast majority of them die within a week or two, that's the point. If less than 5% live longer than 2 years, you just can't make the case that these fish are ok to use in the hobby.

Because Hawaii's targeted species are clearly missing from the reefs, there is growing pressure to do something. The 20,000 fish that died in 2007 before they even left the State can no longer be justified.

[/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

No internet "data" there - those numbers are from State collection reports. RGBmatt is one of 87 collectors reporting Statewide. He's also one of several who said that Moorish Idols "do just fine". So I guess that means that Bob Fenner, Keiron Dodds, the folks at the AMDA, Aquariumpros, MarineDepot, LiveAquaria, and everyone else who's experience says they should be left in the wild are just a bunch of "reef huggers" with some sort of hidden agenda.

Thanks for prooving my point

:lol: You're using internet sites to back up the fact you aren't using internet data :lol: AMDA has been dead for several years

Moorish Idols from PI do horrible, but ones from HI and Mexico have a much higher success rate. Since many get the MI from PI and other places then HI (more costly) they use a blanket statement of them being a "expert" fish. This does not mean all locations are doomed

 

[oceanfish]

Moorish Idols from PI do horrible, but ones from HI and Mexico have a much higher success rate.

That's great news - so what percentage of the ones collected in Hawaii in 2007 would you say are still alive today?

 

[Caterham]

One could also ask what percentage collected in 2007 are dead. Do you have that data? If so, what evidence is there to support it?

I agree with the statements that have been made with regards to the Moorish Idols from Hawaii being a good aquarium fish. They arrive in good shape, eat on the first day and do well in the hobbyists tanks. This seems to be a species that is very misunderstood.

I have no data regarding Moorish Idols that are not from Hawaii as that is the only source I have used. The Hawaiian specimens are well suited for aquariums in my experience.

Best regards,

 

[oceanfish]

Well Keiron Dodds tracked 382 Moorish Idols for almost 3 years. As he reported in Tropical Fish Hobbyist - every one of them died by the end and 280 only lived for a week.

So that's one side of the story. But the other side is how long should they live? Since mammals and other terristrial animals typically live LONGER in captivity than they would in the wild due to reduced stressors and predation, then shouldn't adequate husbandry allow for the same in marine animals? If not, why?

Yellow Tangs commonly live for 20 - 30 years on a reef, and 40+ year olds have been found. The mean age at Kealekekua, the site protected the longest, is 11 years. While alive they contribute to the health and beauty of the entire ecosystem, and when they die - they feed it.

More than 2.5 million Yellow Tangs have been taken from Kona's reefs since 2000.

 

[swsaltwater]

Morish Idols have no place in the hobby IMO, they should be specialty purchases for experienced hobbyist only much like a conspic or clarion angel. I believe they should be stopped, I would not think yellow Tang mortality is anywere close to that. One of our best survivors with maybe only a few dieing per year. I would surely support smart rules by limiting fish to sustainable levels and sustainable species, but i would hope someone qualified would do that research.

 

[pyrrhus]

Yellow Tangs commonly live for 20 - 30 years on a reef, and 40+ year olds have been found.

Where are you getting this information? It has been my understanding that the average life expectancy for most reef fish was around 7 years.

 

[JeremyR]

We have a couple damsels in the shop that we've had 11 years, and larger fish in the same ballpark as well. A neon goby isn't going to live 10 years, but plenty of fish can.

 

[naesco]

No internet "data" there - those numbers are from State collection reports. RGBmatt is one of 87 collectors reporting Statewide. He's also one of several who said that Moorish Idols "do just fine". So I guess that means that Bob Fenner, Keiron Dodds, the folks at the AMDA, Aquariumpros, MarineDepot, LiveAquaria, and everyone else who's experience says they should be left in the wild are just a bunch of "reef huggers" with some sort of hidden agenda.

I can't believe that RGBmatt would make a ridiculous statement. If that were the case, then he would lose all credibility.

 

[naesco]

Without data, internet or otherwise, this is all he said/she said and will get us nowhere - as will arguments to authority without documentation/support.

The polarizing of this issue not only helps make any discussion almost useless, it is also an inaccurate reflection of reality. For instance, many people with experience think some kind of reasonable collection of Moorish Idols is fine as some of them do seem to do well in captivity.

I would really like this issue to continue to be discussed, but if it degrades we will lock the thread. Please, everyone, I know emotions are high here, but we may have a chance to have an actual discussion, without heat, that could benefit everyone.

Thanks.

Thales many people with experience including anyone that has written anything about marine fish would never agree that there should be any sort of collection of Moorish Idols.
Who are the 'people with experience' you are talking about.?

 

[Anonymous]

Without data, internet or otherwise, this is all he said/she said and will get us nowhere - as will arguments to authority without documentation/support.

The polarizing of this issue not only helps make any discussion almost useless, it is also an inaccurate reflection of reality. For instance, many people with experience think some kind of reasonable collection of Moorish Idols is fine as some of them do seem to do well in captivity.

I would really like this issue to continue to be discussed, but if it degrades we will lock the thread. Please, everyone, I know emotions are high here, but we may have a chance to have an actual discussion, without heat, that could benefit everyone.

Thanks.

Thales many people with experience including anyone that has written anything about marine fish would never agree that there should be any sort of collection of Moorish Idols.
Who are the 'people with experience' you are talking about.?

Most of the entities/authors mentioned earlier in this thread have a disclaimer about the difficulty keeping these animals, but don't say they should never be collected.

Wayne, it is simply not the case that "ANYONE that has written ANYTHING about marine fish would NEVER agree that there should be ANY sort of collection of Moorish Idols". Your quote is one of the polarizing, extreme kinds of statements that is factually inaccurate and only serves to make the discussion combative rather than inclusive. The issue is very complicated, and while I understand the desire to distill it, it just isn't that simple.

 

[StevenPro]

On a somewhat related note, did any of you hear about Matt Pederson's work with the orange spotted filefish. This is a fish that many people would argue should be left in the ocean. But, Matt has several pairs that he has trained off of corals and onto a prepared diet. And not only that, but some of his pairs have spawned and he even successfully reared some babies! Matt is not working at some public aquarium somewhere or a University. He is just doing this as an avid, dedicated hobbyist. But, if those fish had been placed onto some sort of do not collect list, he would not have been able to do this work. He would not have been able to even try.

 

[naesco]

Without data, internet or otherwise, this is all he said/she said and will get us nowhere - as will arguments to authority without documentation/support.

The polarizing of this issue not only helps make any discussion almost useless, it is also an inaccurate reflection of reality. For instance, many people with experience think some kind of reasonable collection of Moorish Idols is fine as some of them do seem to do well in captivity.

I would really like this issue to continue to be discussed, but if it degrades we will lock the thread. Please, everyone, I know emotions are high here, but we may have a chance to have an actual discussion, without heat, that could benefit everyone.

Thanks.

Thales many people with experience including anyone that has written anything about marine fish would never agree that there should be any sort of collection of Moorish Idols.
Who are the 'people with experience' you are talking about.?

Most of the entities/authors mentioned earlier in this thread have a disclaimer about the difficulty keeping these animals, but don't say they should never be collected.

Wayne, it is simply not the case that "ANYONE that has written ANYTHING about marine fish would NEVER agree that there should be ANY sort of collection of Moorish Idols". Your quote is one of the polarizing, extreme kinds of statements that is factually inaccurate and only serves to make the discussion combative rather than inclusive. The issue is very complicated, and while I understand the desire to distill it, it just isn't that simple.

My question was very simple. Please name the people with experience you speak of. Another poster listed some of the well known authors and their opinion.
Nothing combative here.

 

[naesco]

On a somewhat related note, did any of you hear about Matt Pederson's work with the orange spotted filefish. This is a fish that many people would argue should be left in the ocean. But, Matt has several pairs that he has trained off of corals and onto a prepared diet. And not only that, but some of his pairs have spawned and he even successfully reared some babies! Matt is not working at some public aquarium somewhere or a University. He is just doing this as an avid, dedicated hobbyist. But, if those fish had been placed onto some sort of do not collect list, he would not have been able to do this work. He would not have been able to even try.

Steven, the voluntary unsuitable species list USL, never suggested that expert hobbyists should be denied access to USL species. I presume Matt is in that category.

The purpose of the USL was to discourage loser LFS and wholesalers from importing fish that had no chance of survival in hobbyist tanks.
Industry did nothing to stop this practice and tonnes of USL fish died.
Fortunately hobbyists educated themselves through reef forums and courageous marine fish authors and IMO importing USL fish has virtually stopped. For example, years ago Moorish Idol were commonly seen for sale in Vancouver LFS. I have not seen one for sale for years because hobbyists knew not to buy them. On many occasions in the past I and others complained in front of other customers when they were for sale.

 

[StevenPro]

Wayne, you have assumed that what someone told you someone else said is in an accurate representation of their views.

Bob Fenner on Moorish Idols on WWM, "Zanclus cornutus (Linnaeus 1758), the Moorish Idol. Indo-Pacific. Can be kept in captivity, though rarely lives due to trauma in capture, holding, shipping, starvation during this time, damage to their mouths... Omnivores that mainly feed on benthic invertebrates. Principally sponges... and algae. Adults have a prominent spine in front of their eyes that is larger in males."

Bob Fenner on Moorish Idols from CMA, "Another related family, Zanclidae, is made up of only one species, Zanclus cornutus, the Moorish Idol. These gorgeous fish are often tried but are rarely kept successfully."

"Tangs themselves have not been successfully spawned and reared in captivity as of this writing, but there are anecdotal reports of hobby spawnings of some and of the related Moorish Idol (Zanclus cornutus) in large systems."

"Moorish Idol (Zanclus cornutus): confused with tangs, and a fish to avoid."

Live Aquaria, "The Moorish Idol is also commonly known in Hawaii as "Kihikihi" which means "curves," "corners," or "zigzags," and refers to its shape and color pattern. It is the only member of the family Zanclidae, and a very close relative of the Tangs or Surgeonfish. One of the most widespread fish, it can be found throughout the Indian Ocean, Red Sea, and all of the tropical Pacific. Wild specimens can attain a length of 7 inches, but 4 inches is more likely in the aquarium.

The Moorish Idol tends to be very peaceful. Due to its size, schooling nature, and need for swimming space, it requires a large aquarium of at least 125 gallons. As its beauty is most evident while swimming, giving it adequate room is well rewarded. It is compatible with most fish and larger invertebrates, but should not be kept with any polyps or corals, which it will eat. Small invertebrates may be threatened as well.

The Moorish Idol is a very difficult fish to feed. Live rock with large amounts of algae and sponges on which it can feed will help it acclimate. Then offer a varied diet of finely chopped meaty items, mysis shrimp, vitamin-enriched brine shrimp, Spirulina, and algae. It should be fed several times a day.

Perhaps the most graceful of all marine fish, for many hobbyists, it is also one of the most difficult fish to keep because it is so difficult to feed. For all but the most expert hobbyist, it is better admired in the ocean or in a public aquarium rather than in a home tank."

Certainly not ringing endorsements and they didn't encourage novices to attempt them, but also not saying that we should ban them either.

 

[Anonymous]

No internet "data" there - those numbers are from State collection reports. RGBmatt is one of 87 collectors reporting Statewide. He's also one of several who said that Moorish Idols "do just fine". So I guess that means that Bob Fenner, Keiron Dodds, the folks at the AMDA, Aquariumpros, MarineDepot, LiveAquaria, and everyone else who's experience says they should be left in the wild are just a bunch of "reef huggers" with some sort of hidden agenda.

Thanks for prooving my point

:lol: You're using internet sites to back up the fact you aren't using internet data :lol: AMDA has been dead for several years

Moorish Idols from PI do horrible, but ones from HI and Mexico have a much higher success rate. Since many get the MI from PI and other places then HI (more costly) they use a blanket statement of them being a "expert" fish. This does not mean all locations are doomed

One could argue that its close to a decade that they have been dead. :wink: