Identifying juicers

[Anonymous]

I know I'm in the minority for giving a rats and actually paying attention and trying to make a difference where possible, but....

I think that if hobbyists could somehow be made aware of who's juicing and who's buying/selling juiced fish, it would really help put a damper on that behavior. -- Like throwing a spotlight on cockroaches basically..

And just like I know I'm in the minority for giving a rip, I know I'm not "in the biz" and am therefore naive about a lot of the true goings-on, so what I would like to know is..

Is this even possible? - If so, do any of you think that it could actually help? - Is it happening already (that juicers are being identified) and hobbyists just aren't being made aware?

Make all the laws and push net training all you want, if the cockroaches are kept comfortable in the dark with plenty of food all round, they're not going to go away..

Thanks in advance,
Norm

 

[PeterIMA]

If you mean by "juice" both cyanide and quinaldine there is a long list of exporters and suppliers (collectors, importers and wholesalers). In Florida, FWC probably could provide a list of collectors allowed to use quinaldine. I have the CDT database that has been used to identify the relative amounts (percentages) of fishes caught using cyanide in the Philippines by export company. Using these data in a public forum like RDO probably would get me and others (like RDO staff) into trouble (perhaps law suites).

I suggest it would be easier to identify the suppliers, who sell exclusively net-caught fish. I am sure these companies would not mind if they were identified. RDO would have to allow it, or we could post the information on another web site, where it could be accessed by potential buyers.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Even with Peters documents, you'lll get sued and loose if you call any US based person a cyanider seller. The quin thing is public knowledge, so go right ahead and call a spade a spade on that one

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Peter,

If RDO isn't interested, I'm 100% totally positive a location can be made to share either (the "positive" or "negative" - or both!) datasets from...

Norm

 

[JennM]

The problem is - ask *any* wholesaler if they sell juiced fish and you'll get an emphatic NO!

If you believe everything you hear, nobody anywhere is selling cyanide-caught fish.

Hence, the same would apply to any retailer - of course he doesn't sell juiced fish - his wholesaler told him so. :roll:

There are very few guarantees. There are no testing protocols in place so a lot of it is the "honour system".

The bottom line is, *somebody* is buying all the juiced fish... so it's a game of hot potato to figure it out.

Normally the safest way is to just buy from wholesalers who don't buy from countries where that's an issue - however even that's a crap shoot as we have to believe them when they tell us that everything they have came from Hawaii, Solomons, Marshalls etc.

Having good relationships with choosy wholesalers helps but at the end of the day nobody can tell you with 100% certainty that there's been no juice.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Good point Jenn.. - If data is made available it does need to be looked at objectively..

And obviously, needs to be presented that way as well.

 

[Anonymous]

better make sure you have proof to counter the huge lawsuits you'll be smacked with

 

[Anonymous]

better make sure you have proof to counter the huge lawsuits you'll be smacked with

So its true that this biz is full of super rich types who can afford to tie things up in court forever eh?

Should make for good publicity too if it happens. - Suing a hobbyist who has no financial stake whatsoever....

 

[Anonymous]

better make sure you have proof to counter the huge lawsuits you'll be smacked with

So its true that this biz is full of super rich types who can afford to tie things up in court forever eh?

Should make for good publicity too if it happens. - Suing a hobbyist who has no financial stake whatsoever....

You don't have to be rich to bring forward a lawsuit your the odds are your going to win. There is no legally accepted CDT in the states IIRC, so Peters findings from years ago, in another country no less, wouldn't support your alligations.

 

[Anonymous]

better make sure you have proof to counter the huge lawsuits you'll be smacked with

So its true that this biz is full of super rich types who can afford to tie things up in court forever eh?

Should make for good publicity too if it happens. - Suing a hobbyist who has no financial stake whatsoever....

You don't have to be rich to bring forward a lawsuit your the odds are your going to win. There is no legally accepted CDT in the states IIRC, so Peters findings from years ago, in another country no less, wouldn't support your alligations.

Who says I intend to make any allegations? - Facts are facts are they not?

Don't ass/u/me anything, I certainly don't..

Besides.. - As closed-mouthed as many are about who they buy from in this industry, its probably next to impossible to tell who's buying from whom anyway.. :?

As many have pointed out, the real crux of effecting any change in this industry has to come from the pocketbooks of the hobbyists. - How are they to do so if they're not armed with the information to make the change(s) they want?

Norm

 

[Anonymous]

The hobbyist control manta is over 20 years old, as are most hobbyists. They hobbyists were given the word in the 80's, and they chose to continue business as usual. A 20+ part series was published in the most popular magazine back then, way before the internet. It called for hobbyist boycotts, etc, and armed them with great details of the "dirty secret". The concerned hobbyists are in the minority when it comes to this trade unfortunatly.

 

[Anonymous]

Yep, I remember reading FAMA way back when. (I don't bother with it much anymore though, I haven't had freshies in over 20 years now.)

But really, if those of us who do care just sit back apathetically.....? :?

I don't know, maybe I missed the boat a couple decades ago (as surprising as that would be) but I don't recall seeing anything that gave us concerned hobbyists any real teeth to do anything with. - Sure, we've always been able to ask our store(s) if they care too, but if we're able to educate them on who we can see is being good and who isn't, well now, the whole lip-service game gets chucked right out the window doesn't it?

Besides.. - The world was a much different place just a mere 20-something years ago when "Video Killed the Radio Star" and younger minds have since awakened a bit...

Norm

 

[JennM]

How would a hobbyist or anyone *know* with certainty, who to boycott? How would anybody?

Since "nobody" sells juiced fish, and there's no stateside test, folks would be speculating at best.

It's not that there isn't anybody to blow the whistle, nobody *can*... not if they want to bear the burdon of proof.

Anybody could state, "Wholesaler X" sells juiced fish - but how would they back it up? Wholesaler X claims they only sell net-caught fish. Who can dispute that? Lots of mortalities? Gee, could be shipping, handling or holding practices... no test, no solid determination of the cause of death.

Of course I've cut open some fish in my day, whose livers were mush... when customers brought in specimens that were fine one day and dead the next - and not necessarily fish purchased from me. They know I'll cut it open to check it out if they ask. Liver turned to mush isn't a sure-fire proof either (although it's often a good indicator)... but with no test, and anyhow the fish would have peed away the "evidence" long before it died and was cut open - it's speculation at best.

I'm sure every retailer with a clue (and there are plenty that have no clue at all) has opinions about who sells clean fish and who doesn't, but they are just that ... *opinions*. If I named an entity which I *believe* sells juiced fish, I'd be wide open to a law suit, and not have any proof at all.

Nobody in their right mind is going to name names publically because of this. It's all based on speculation, there's no way to prove or disprove and since we're all innocent until proven guilty, and there's no accepted way to prove guilt, it's an impossible task, IMO to "out" anybody.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Like how they claim all their wrasses die from juice, or their mandarins are skinny and not eating, cuz they were juiced :lol:

 

[JT]

The problem is - ask *any* wholesaler if they sell juiced fish and you'll get an emphatic NO!

Exactly, some whoresalers in LA are so ashamed to admit that they buy PI fish that they claim the fish come from Bali. One whoresaler "codes" their tanks with an origin code, a letter followed by three digits identifying the supplier. For instance, F105 would be Fiji and the 105 would be the name of the supplier. You will never find a PXXX in this facility, but you will find a whole lot of BXXX codes.

The sad truth is, just because it's Bali doesn't mean the fish are any better. There are many juicers in Bali and Sumatra yet there are some fine net caught suppliers in PI.

 

[clarionreef]

JTs right...
THERE ARE MORE CYANIDE USERS IN INDONESIA / BALI THEN IN THE PHILIPPINES NOW.
There is a greater % of users of cyanide in the Indonesian/ Bali population of collectors then in the Philippines and there is far more institutional tolerance for it in Indo then in the Philippines now.
The Philippines is actually slowly fixing itself in dozens of municipalties whereas Indo/ Bali has but a single shining example in Northern Bali in the Les village complex.
Between Indo or Philippine fish...one could more accurately boast of Philippine fishes as being the cleaner ones for the most part now,
Steve
PS. Our favorite dropshipper has expunged the word Philippines from its entire on-line presentation.

 

[Anonymous]

Coral Sea is what they call it, right Some do actually say Cebu, but no mention of Cebu actually being PI :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Right !
Cebu = central Philippines
like Bali is central Indonesia
The fact that so many customers do not know this makes one wonder what else they have come to believe so lightly and how gullible they are regarding the claims to eco-correctness always passing by.
These little tricks however reveal more significant information about the marketer then the customer.
Driven by shame enough to market differently but not enough to change buying behavior or support genuine field reform.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Yep, you're right Jenn, there currently is no way to tell with any real certainty who's selling juiced fish and who isn't. - And no, I have no solution for that either.

Remember, I'm just a hobbyist with no experience in the biz at all.. I have no idea what sort of pressure(s) could be applied to wholesalers to provide accurate info on where things have come from, if they even have that.. - All I can really do is ask my LFS who they buy from and ask for proof if I think I need to - thankfully, I don't..

When it comes down to it, I'm just asking to see who's passed the CDT and who hasn't (if thats possible.) - I expect I'll have to do my own homework from there - and I don't expect it will be easy or even fully possible really.

That said, is anyone running any current CDT's?? - It would be nice to see current data on a regular basis. (And shared openly with the world..) Its about the only way I see of actually keeping things in check.

 

[Anonymous]

THERE IS NO CDT


dayum-always wanted to post that regarding a spoon