Conservation Thread

[dizzy]

I remember Proaquatix had some of the post larval fish a few years back. The size was very tiny, the price was very high, and the species mix was terrible. It was a losing proposition for the retailer to be sure. If they were all A-list fish it would be much more attractive, but I still think you would lose yer ass at the price they were asking.
Mitch

PS
I don't believe they worked out so well for ERI either. Or FF.

 

[clarionreef]

Right you are Mitch...
Logic and experience definitely gives one a different perspective on things doesn't it?
Crafting some fish from the lab is a wee bit different then producing the commercial quantities some are prematurely celebrating.
The marine science lab in La Paz Mexico produces larval grow out all the time...tens and thousands of useless fishes in fact that no one wants.
Periodically they seperate some cool stuff to dummy up another grant with but they have to date not produced one single fish to sell worth a fraction of a days electricity costs.
I advised them on species to go for some 7 years ago and provided broodstock as well. They played with all of the species with the predictable results that everyone knows of [ except the public apparently] .
A few years into it they found that the research money granted was the real gold in them thar hills and they have been amplifying small results ever since.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Mark wrote the following on an earlier post

"Steve,

There are catch limits on these fish. Areas like Bohol and Camotes can only "certify" a few of these highly desireable fish each year.....

Eric,

Where are the blueface and blue tangs coming from? Marcilla, Tawi Tawi or Cayagancillo? HOw many certified blue tangs did get?

There were many problems with the certification in these locations and in fact certification was competely dependant upon them resolving many non-compliances within a particular timeframe. Finally, as of last fall, MAMTI management decided to quit pumping money into both Tawi Tawi and Cayagancillo and gave up much to my dissappointment. I thought this was wrong as the fishers DID NOT have enough training and experience. Last year they did not even want to pack and ship fish without a MAC trainer being present. THEY WERE NOT COMFORTABLE DOING SO because of their poor shipment history. There are other serious issues with the economics of shipping FROM these places as they are far from any majoy export city. They are great fisheries but they come with many challenges.

To my knowledge only two cites in Bohol, and one in Camotes, and maybe one in Marcilla now are actually producing certified fish; and there are few blueface and NO blue tangs coming from there except maybe Marcilla.

I don't mean to be confrontational with this post but am very curious as to where these fish come from. Certification NEEDS TO MEAN SOMETHING.

IMHO, they still need follow up training and extension in Bohol. For that matter, based on what Ive seen here MOST collectors/coordinators need reminders or "refresher courses" on handling, holding and packing.... Rember Eric, you ususally get the cream of the crop, IT IS NOT THE NORM, BUT THE EXCEPTION HERE.

With all due respect,

Mark
_________________
We protect what we love..... Love your mother Earth.




Mark, Your posting seems to have been ignored. I thank you for explaining the situation concerning which sites have received trainings by the MAC. I can see that there were many problems with holding and transport. It also looks like the costs of shipping to Manila may have made fishes coming from Tawi Tawi uneconomic. I am sorry to hear that the MAC pulled out of the sites you listed. That does not leave any sites with the appropriate species mix. How sustainable are Clarin, Batasin, Marcilla, and Camotes?

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Finally, as of last fall, MAMTI management decided to quit pumping money into both Tawi Tawi and Cayagancillo ....

If they would have listened to us here they would have saved all that time and money.
It was clearly explained to deaf ears...and the failures came to pass as was well known they would. We really have a seriously accurate track record predicting this stuff. Theres a reason for it.
Steve
PS. KEYWORDS;
CIA training, angry mayor, rebel returnees, " kicked out", many thousands of crowded damsels per run...and more

 

[clarionreef]

post from a year ago;

The old post is written in the inflamatory tone that we are trying to stamp out of this forum. So, it has been removed. Feel free to post a link to it though - Righty

 

[Anonymous]

Finally, as of last fall, MAMTI management decided to quit pumping money into both Tawi Tawi and Cayagancillo ....

If they would have listened to us here they would have saved all that time and money.
It was clearly explained to deaf ears...and the failures came to pass as was well known they would. We really have a seriously accurate track record predicting this stuff. Theres a reason for it.
Steve
PS. KEYWORDS;
CIA training, angry mayor, rebel returnees, " kicked out", many thousands of crowded damsels per run...and more

Steve, it seems like you think there is no way for any of this to work, and as such I am not sure what you hope to accomplish by the 'I told you so posts'.

 

[Fish_dave]

Wayne,

I do not want you to think that I am ingnoring your last post even though most of the answers have been answered before or are just common sense in this industry.

Basically the answer is that it is too difficult for village people to grow out the small post larval fish to a size that can be accepted in hobby. The Solomons is still a very primitive place and village peoples have virtually no infrastructure for anything. These people have no electricity, water is hauled from a river for drinking, and they cook with fire. It is a very difficult thing for them to raise the fish. The only reason the shrimps and lobsters are working out is because a NGO is working with them and footing the bill for getting it done. The NGO is spending tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands to produce a few animals worth hundreds. When the funding runs out so will the supply of these animals.

The other problem is that if you raise the small fish to marketable size in the Solomons then we have freight space and cost issues to deal with. A raised fish is always going to cost more than a wild caught fish, if the freight is equal on both then the raised fish is going to hit the market at a much higher price. If we ship them out as tiny fish at 100 per box then the freight savings will off set some of the raising costs and the fish can then be sold at a reasonable price in the market. This works out on both ends, the village people in the Solomons receive needed money for producing the fish and the freight savings from raising the fish close to the market helps off set the higher price of the post larval collected fish. In theory it should make it a workable proposition. Raising the fish at the point of collection has been proven to not work due to the high freight costs on the marketable sized fish.

I can get a much better mix of fish than was available from French Polynesia. My collectors can target better species and eliminate many of the convict tangs, brown tangs, damsels and chromis that you had to take from French Polynesia. Species varieties are much better in the Solomons. What it will take is someone with a large facility and quite a lot of disposable money to take these fish and develop protocols that will raise them up to market size close to the market (here in the States).

Dave

 

[naesco]

Thanks for the background Dave

2 years ago I purchase a tiny 3-4cm asfer in Taiwan.

I recently purchased tiny queen, emporor and queen locally.

I have never seen angels so tiny available for sale.

Are angels l larval raised now.
Thanks
Wayne

 

[Fish_dave]

Taiwan has had Asfur and Maculosus angels available quite regularly. The last Maculosus that I purchased were quite large for raised fish, about 4 inches. The Taiwan fish are not post larval collected but are pond raised fish (from spawned eggs). 6 or 8 species show up from Taiwan sporadically in the trade. I have not heard of any emperor or queen angels available captive raised. I have seen some pretty tiny ones collected in the wild. Let's hope that your tiny queen was not collected in Florida or it is as illegal as most of the workers in L.A.

Dave

 

[naesco]

Taiwan has had Asfur and Maculosus angels available quite regularly. The last Maculosus that I purchased were quite large for raised fish, about 4 inches. The Taiwan fish are not post larval collected but are pond raised fish (from spawned eggs). 6 or 8 species show up from Taiwan sporadically in the trade. I have not heard of any emperor or queen angels available captive raised. I have seen some pretty tiny ones collected in the wild. Let's hope that your tiny queen was not collected in Florida or it is as illegal as most of the workers in L.A.

Dave

Thank you for answering my questions.
No they are tiny 3-4 cm. I assumed they were larval raised as they were the same size as the tiny blue tangs.
I don't know the origin of the queen. I will see if I can find out where all the angels came from.
BTW I also saw similar sized angels in Kuwait last fall.

Why do we continue to the import of mature breeding wild angels when these are available to the hobby.

Thanks Wayne

 

[clarionreef]

Rich wrote;
"Steve, it seems like you think there is no way for any of this to work, and as such I am not sure what you hope to accomplish by the 'I told you so posts'."

Nothing could be futher from the truth.
With the new Haliburtonization of the reform business it may not work but with fish folks that have done it before repeatedly... it works just fine.
The very fact of 75 net only Filipinos working abroad now with not one of them MAC trained proves this.
Historically, on tiny budgets and with few concerned about the issue it worked fine. Hundreds were trained before many witnesses.

This is not that hard to do...and the MAC/MAMTI failure to do it despite record budgets and goodwill proves the case against them....

Losing the chance to get this right is absolutely infuriating and we all know good and well that when the hammer drops it will be because the trade didn't "co-operate" with their... chronic failure.

In the final analysis , it will be our collective fault for being lazy and irresponsible by letting MAC do it...when we knew they couldn't.
The call against consigning our futures away to MAC is a warning and should be heeded. Empty, non performing environmental mal-practice will save nothing and leave us defenseless when the USCRTF comes calling.
This is an expert opinion.




Steve

 

[sdcfish]

Steve,

I am sorry that I have to agree with Rich. You are in such a deteriating mode, that I am not sure if you can see or think clearly about the current situation.

I understand that having been there yourself, you have some personal feelings as to how things should get done.

You keep reffering to historic events and past experiences....but you should realize that those short lived efforts had failed and this new approach is the proper way to handle a managed fishery. It does not happen with lunch money and a few "good men".

I am desperately emploring you again to take a diplomatic approach and stop the road of destruction attitude. You can be of constructive help, but this path you have taken is getting us and you nowhere.

Please try to add something positive and make a suggestion instead of always attacking and bringing us all down. You believe your statements to be true, but their are others like myself who are on the other side of the fence, just as passionate about our belief's that can see this goal being realized.

I thank you for your consideration.


Eric

 

[PeterIMA]

Rearing Larval Fish

Fish Dave has stated that it is uneconomic to rear larval fish in the country of origin for export to the aquarium trade (based on his work in the Solomons). I don't believe that this is the case in the Philippines. I had the opportunity to visit the hatchery/rearing facility that Ferdinand Cruz has created in the Province of Bicol, PI last November.

Ferdinand has chosen his site carefully. The site is situated on the Albay Gulf. The waters are rich in plankton. Ferdinand has biologists using light traps and channel nets to capture larval fish. They also use plankton nets to gather zooplankton for feeding larval fishes. The facility pumps water from the Gulf through a series of raceways. Ferdinand stated they could gather large numbers of larval fishes off of relatively few coral heads after the fish had settled. Hence, he believes it is possible to gather large numbers of the species of interest to the aquarium trade, if one knows when and where they recruit and settle to the bottom.

Feeding the larvae is economic since they are being largely provided with the foods the fish would eat naturally in the local marine ecosystem. From what I know, this is still how most larval fishes get reared. For example, dwarf angelfish were reared in Hawaii with copepods captured from the wild, since no one has yet developed a method for closing the life cycle to allow copepods to be reared from eggs.

It is cheaper to have Filipinos trained in marine biology doing the work of gathering the plankton and feeding the fishes in a hatchery situated in the Philippines, than to have the work done in western countries (such as the USA) where staff wages are higher. The aquaculture facility is also cheaper to create and maintain in PI, than in Hawaii, Florida, or Puerto Rico.

Ferdinand and Dr. Ralph Turingan are now working with the aquarium fish collectors, and training them how to rear the fishes in floating cages. Once, the fish have transformed from post-larvae to small juveniles, they can be transferred to the floating cages. The collectors are being trained to feed the juvenile fishes for grow out to the sizes needed for export. While, it is still too soon to determine the economics of these efforts, I am optimistic that rearing fishes in this way for export
can be very competetive on the world market.

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Eric,
.
As a conduit of the goodwill and potential product from the collection of groups now playing...this thread is an obvious marketing tool for you and possibly a conflict of commercial interest.
Trying to control and manipulate this thread from the beginning under the guise of "pure conservation interest" is another obvious thing noticed by many and pointed out by few.
Other importers are not trying to so clearly sell thru this forum and you should not either.
Interest in conservation...should be more free wheeling and less an attempt to thread the thread thru such a narow course of action.
I have pointed out the failure of projects to respect historical precedent and the constant, current consequence of doing so.
I understand your role as an advance man for delivering us up unto MANTI/MAC initiatives very well...and respectfully resist the planned failure ahead.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Rearing Larval Fish

Fish Dave has stated that it is uneconomic to rear larval fish in the country of origin for export to the aquarium trade (based on his work in the Solomons). I don't believe that this is the case in the Philippines. I had the opportunity to visit the hatchery/rearing facility that Ferdinand Cruz has created in the Province of Bicol, PI last November.

Ferdinand has chosen his site carefully. The site is situated on the Albay Gulf. The waters are rich in plankton. Ferdinand has biologists using light traps and channel nets to capture larval fish. They also use plankton nets to gather zooplankton for feeding larval fishes. The facility pumps water from the Gulf through a series of raceways. Ferdinand stated they could gather large numbers of larval fishes off of relatively few coral heads after the fish had settled. Hence, he believes it is possible to gather large numbers of the species of interest to the aquarium trade, if one knows when and where they recruit and settle to the bottom.

Feeding the larvae is economic since they are being largely provided with the foods the fish would eat naturally in the local marine ecosystem. From what I know, this is still how most larval fishes get reared. For example, dwarf angelfish were reared in Hawaii with copepods captured from the wild, since no one has yet developed a method for closing the life cycle to allow copepods to be reared from eggs.

It is cheaper to have Filipinos trained in marine biology doing the work of gathering the plankton and feeding the fishes in a hatchery situated in the Philippines, than to have the work done in western countries (such as the USA) where staff wages are higher. The aquaculture facility is also cheaper to create and maintain in PI, than in Hawaii, Florida, or Puerto Rico.

Ferdinand and Dr. Ralph Turingan are now working with the aquarium fish collectors, and training them how to rear the fishes in floating cages. Once, the fish have transformed from post-larvae to small juveniles, they can be transferred to the floating cages. The collectors are being trained to feed the juvenile fishes for grow out to the sizes needed for export. While, it is still too soon to determine the economics of these efforts, I am optimistic that rearing fishes in this way for export
can be very competetive on the world market.

Peter Rubec

This is good news indeed.
Dr. Rubec, can you please find out what species are currently available?
Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

Rich wrote;
"Steve, it seems like you think there is no way for any of this to work, and as such I am not sure what you hope to accomplish by the 'I told you so posts'."

Nothing could be futher from the truth.
With the new Haliburtonization of the reform business it may not work but with fish folks that have done it before repeatedly... it works just fine.
The very fact of 75 net only Filipinos working abroad now with not one of them MAC trained proves this.

This seems to have nothing to do with the 'I told you so' posts.

Historically, on tiny budgets and with few concerned about the issue it worked fine. Hundreds were trained before many witnesses.

This is not that hard to do...and the MAC/MAMTI failure to do it despite record budgets and goodwill proves the case against them....

It might prove the past cases against them, but says nothing about the current or future cases about them. Sure, cautionary tales are important, but I think you go beyond cautionary tales.

Losing the chance to get this right is absolutely infuriating and we all know good and well that when the hammer drops it will be because the trade didn't "co-operate" with their... chronic failure.

I think the 'I told you so' posts will only hasten the fall of the hammer.

In the final analysis , it will be our collective fault for being lazy and irresponsible by letting MAC do it...when we knew they couldn't.

Who is letting MAC do it? Not me. I am however, interested in getting MAC's ear so perhaps they will do it right. MAC is going to continue to do something, and I don't see why we shouldn't try to help instead of telling them they are doomed to failure.

The call against consigning our futures away to MAC is a warning and should be heeded. Empty, non performing environmental mal-practice will save nothing and leave us defenseless when the USCRTF comes calling.
This is an expert opinion.

I agree. At the same time, MAC has the infrastructure and the momentum to do something and I am more interested in trying to get their ear so they can do something useful instead of essentially telling them they are going to fail no matter what.

 

[Anonymous]

Eric,
.
As a conduit of the goodwill and potential product from the collection of groups now playing...this thread is an obvious marketing tool for you and possibly a conflict of commercial interest.
Trying to control and manipulate this thread from the beginning under the guise of "pure conservation interest" is another obvious thing noticed by many and pointed out by few.
Other importers are not trying to so clearly sell thru this forum and you should not either.

I think most of that is bunk. We have been looking for information about the actuality of MAC's work, and someone is finally sharing. I do not feel that Eric has been trying to sell through this forum.

 

[Anonymous]

A screen name which relates back to the poster's business name, such as Cortez Marine, could be considered an obvious marketing tool if one wanted to be picky.

 

[naesco]

Eric call Steve! Steve call Eric! Please!!!!
Righty your right when you post
"MAC has the infrastructure and the momentum to do something and I am more interested in trying to get their ear so they can do something useful instead of essentially telling them they are going to fail no matter what"

It would be my wish that someone call Steve and those who contributed so much in the past and talk to them before committements are made.

Survival of our industry is at stake. Everyone needs to get onboard now.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't necessarily agree that everyone needs to get onboard. I just think everyone should be trying to help everyone who is making efforts. Not everyone is going to agree with how particular groups choose to get try to get things done, but I think we are all better served if everyone has a chance to really hear all the ideas.