Conservation Thread

[sdcfish]

Mitch,

Maybe you are right and I am being too optimistic to think we can sell the Mac fish for the same price as the other. BUT, I have good reason to believe we can do it. Same pricing from our suppliers regardless of whether they are Mac certified or not. I am not telling the suppliers to charge me more, and some of our suppliers have yet to ask us for more money....so I think we have that covered.

Who's going to pay for MAC, MAMTI and RC? Well, their are grants and Industry support. I think that a good model would be to acheive the majority of retailers and importers into certification, whereas everyone can pay their yearly due's and it will lower the "tax" that we each will pay.

The "tax" that we are supposed to be paying when we sell certified fish has not yet been enforced, and I believe it's possible to modify the original structure that has been set up to make it more fair and appealing to the majority of Industry people. You can do your part by joining and help differ the costs. The more contributors, the easier this effort will be to fund.

I always try to tell the Truth Mitch....but I understand it's hard to judge someone's character without truly knowing a person. I think my optimism can be understood as someone who really believes that this can work and I am trying to do my part to help make it succeed.

Nano,

Good point you made about the common name for the ocellaris was mentioned on the list as "percula/ocellaris". It is very common to see these fish listed this way on stock reports or invoices. I think we all know the difference of the two, and coming from this supplier in the Philipines, it's obvious that we would receive ocellaris, not True Percula.

Steve wrote:

Nano,
Of course they are and true percs are rare in the Philippines.
The list was just a passed around template of fishes said to exist in the collection area and calls into question the quality of the work from the outset.
Steve

Steve, I am surprised that you didn't pick up on that one. They are not True Perculas coming from the Philipines, they are regular ocellaris. This was not a passed around template but an actual stocklist of MAC certified fish that are available from this week's stocklist. I did not include the pricing or qty's available, but this is nothing fabricated like you mentioned.

To your credit, this is a common mistake that often is made when looking at lists. By the way, there were nearly 400 ocellaris available this week.....all Mac certified and all could be sold for the same price. Isn't that great!(I say that with a smile of'course....bring on the humor!)

Best regards

Eric

 

[naesco]

I think our goal is to keep this economically viable for the consumer and hope that we can sell the Mac fish at the same price as the non-mac fish, and give equal quality or better.

Eric

It will only cost pennies more and although hobbyists are wary of unreasonalby high markups some LFS and online stores charge, pennies will not make any difference.

However MAC has weakened its major marketing benefit. To get a hobbyist to buy certified fish, sustainability means nothing, but, certified cyanide-free does. When MAC decides to activate its committee on cyanide to approve a test and do random testing, they will be able to sell MAC certification to all the parties in the chain.

Only the cyanide cartel and loser wholesalers and retailers will remain, but they will lose business and eventually come on board.

A few years ago Mary Middlebrook had the courage to out what was really happening when she exposed cyanide as industry's dirty little secret.
It will not be too long before the cyanide cartel on both sides of the Pacific is exposed by concerned conservationists from within industry itself.

 

[clarionreef]

Surprised I didn't pick up on what?

and true percs are rare in the Philippines...

Meaning they were ocellaris of course.
Steve
PS. Blueface in Buhol are vanishing...AND NEED TO BE LEFT ALONE.

 

[Anonymous]

I think our goal is to keep this economically viable for the consumer and hope that we can sell the Mac fish at the same price as the non-mac fish, and give equal quality or better.

Eric

It will only cost pennies more and although hobbyists are wary of unreasonalby high markups some LFS and online stores charge, pennies will not make any difference.

However MAC has weakened its major marketing benefit. To get a hobbyist to buy certified fish, sustainability means nothing, but, certified cyanide-free does. When MAC decides to activate its committee on cyanide to approve a test and do random testing, they will be able to sell MAC certification to all the parties in the chain.

Only the cyanide cartel and loser wholesalers and retailers will remain, but they will lose business and eventually come on board.

A few years ago Mary Middlebrook had the courage to out what was really happening when she exposed cyanide as industry's dirty little secret.
It will not be too long before the cyanide cartel on both sides of the Pacific is exposed by concerned conservationists from within industry itself.

Dude, it happenned far before Mary was on the seen, try early 80's, not late 90's

 

[PeterIMA]

Wayne, I agree with Gresham. Both Steve and myself wrote many (like at least 10 articles each) about the cyanide fishing problem in the 1980s in aquarium hobbyist magazines such as FAMA and Marine Fish Monthly. I also wrote papers published in scientific journals and conference proceedings. A more recent (1997) source of information was the publication by Drs. Barber and Pratt "Sullied Seas". Mary posted some of this information and provided links to other web sites that also repeated our information. She did not create it.

Peter

 

[JeremyR]

At this point.. does it really matter who outed the cyanide problem when? We all get it. Really, we do.

 

[clarionreef]

How can anyone "get it?"
since...
"I made it all up in a bar in Manila".
Steve

 

[sdcfish]

Steve,

It sounds like you have some very good ideas for what areas in Buhol need to be looked at and possibly set up as MPA's. If you would like to share that information to Reef Check, I think it could be very valuable.

Best regards,

Eric

 

[clarionreef]

Eric,
Buhol is the most tragic story out there and the start down the wrong road of many things.
If they were deemed sustainable for example...what would not be? If there were surveys of these depleted areas....who on earth would accept them as scientifically accurate?
If blueface were on any lists....they cannot be serious except for the odd, vanishing , XXL loner.
Many other species that may be recorded as present do not make any commercial numbers possible for exploitation.
Remember;
This area made the Eyas-Cebu Aquatics empire built on cyanide distribution to children in the 70's and 80's. They bleached every coral in the Danajon Bank from Tagbilaran to Camotes Island and beyond.
I interviewed and photographed 13 year old kids there catching fish with cyanide just off Clarin in '82.

Then MAC headquarters its initiative in the middle of this region and anchors its movement where we know sustainability is now but a wispy notion.
Project Seahorse spent time an money there and still more is known from that.
As a mandarin and chelmon depot...it still kicks out something but as a centerpiece for any reform...it is the opposite.
It was living proof of either insincere or very ill-advised planning.
The people there need help...but this trade has few fish left there to deal them with.
Steve

 

[sdcfish]

Steve,

I can't tell you from where the fish came from, but I would not assume they are from an area that you describe.

The weekly stocklist showed about 16 pcs of blueface angels of all sizes, so I doubt your theory applies here...but I am sure wherever you are speaking of, it's possible that there are none or few.

Please help Reef Check consider to protect areas that you know were damaged the last time you were there.....in the 80's. I am sure some guidelines for study would be very helpful. This is part of how you can really help be a valuable contributor to this process.

Best regards

Eric

 

[clarionreef]

Eric,
I asked earlier where the blueface came from as a determiner of credibility of the station. For sure that amount did not come from Buhol.

As a baseline for comparison, I remember very well how the reef condition was in Buhol, Zambales, Polilio Island, Pangasinan, Palawan and the Blueface region of Bugsuk Island in Southern Palawan.
Some places are getting better again...and some worse.
The sheer weight of population in the floating islands off Buhol make their impact serious...whatever they do.
They certainly cannot sustain a harvest of anything the big trade in tropicals needs...but some of the locals can make something for their needs.
Steve
Converting cyanide users was always the prime directive...not creating new fisherman as in Tawi Tawi where the blueface may have come from.

 

[nanocat]

Not to muddy the waters, but is anyone doing anything to pursue the concept of post larval collection and captive raising in the field?

 

[Anonymous]

I think our goal is to keep this economically viable for the consumer and hope that we can sell the Mac fish at the same price as the non-mac fish, and give equal quality or better.

Eric

It will only cost pennies more and although hobbyists are wary of unreasonalby high markups some LFS and online stores charge, pennies will not make any difference.

However MAC has weakened its major marketing benefit. To get a hobbyist to buy certified fish, sustainability means nothing, but, certified cyanide-free does. When MAC decides to activate its committee on cyanide to approve a test and do random testing, they will be able to sell MAC certification to all the parties in the chain.

Only the cyanide cartel and loser wholesalers and retailers will remain, but they will lose business and eventually come on board.

A few years ago Mary Middlebrook had the courage to out what was really happening when she exposed cyanide as industry's dirty little secret.It will not be too long before the cyanide cartel on both sides of the Pacific is exposed by concerned conservationists from within industry itself.

naesco, please get your facts and history straight

the fine things that mary's done aside, she most certainly is/was not the 'outer' of the biz's 'dirty little secret'

it hasn't been a secret since the '80's, and steve's a far likelier candidate, from our industry's side, for the title of 'the one', as his and don dewey's fama articles/editorials (that i remember reading back in the day, heh) were the real 'outer' articles that the hobby was first exposed to on a large scale

 

[Anonymous]

Not to muddy the waters, but is anyone doing anything to pursue the concept of post larval collection and captive raising in the field?

One word, Ecomay (hope I spelled the one word right )

 

[Anonymous]

At this point.. does it really matter who outed the cyanide problem when? We all get it. Really, we do.

I was simply correcting a mistake that Neasco has continued to post for years.

I'm sure you get it, after all, you a lifetime poster here on RDO :wink:

 

[JeremyR]

And yet I've not made squat yet.

 

[Anonymous]

only 44 left for ya to go, bubbeleh

 

[clarionreef]

Thanks for the mention guys.
I got the inspiration to go to the Philippines and find out whats going on from Nelson Herwig of the Houston Zoo aquarium back in 1980.
Don Dewey of FAMA allowed the reports to be published and if anyone goes back to read the articles, they will see where the emphasis is very heavy on solutions....not just slamming the [ my] industry.
The solutions came dramatically in 1984 and the net trainings which included heavy emphasis on handling, decompression, bagging, heat and ammonia control and avoidance, community involvement, local environmental issues and getting the boys off cyanide and its cost and danger burden.
I listened to them and they taught me what they would most likely respond to and what would work to make conversion to clean collecting work.
Theres no way to figure this out abroad.
It has to come from home grown counsel and friendship.
My primary partner in training , Romulo Purgatorio helped to convince others and soon we had a few dozen coming around.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

With regard to the question about rearing larval fish in PI, Ferdinand Cruz has established a hatchery facility near Legaspi City in Bicol. He is working with Dr. Ralph Turingan on both breeding and rearing MAF from eggs, and also capturing larval fish (with light traps and nets) and rearing them for sale to the marine aquarium trade. I witnessed their facility and methods during my visit to the Bicol hatchery facility last November. The approach is similar to the program by Ecocean (a french NGO collaborating with ReefCheck)..

Peter Rubec

 

[Fish_dave]

We have been involved with rearing post larval fish and shrimps for over 6 years now in the Solomon Islands. At present we have small blue lobster, anemone shrimp, and stenopus shrimps reared from post larvae collected in light traps available for sale every week. The price is cheap, consistent with wild collected but it is very hard to sell enough of them to make it worth doing. We did post larval rearing of fish for 4 years and found it very difficult to sell the fish for anything more than wild collected prices. I can supply hundreds if not thousands of very tiny post larval and stabilized fish each week from the Solomons if someone is interested in raising them here in the states. I did it for a couple of years in Puerto Rico and proved that it could be done, it is just hard to do it for a profit in todays market. I know that this is off topic of this thread but the fish are available if someone wants to pursue it send me a P.M.

Dave