Conservation Thread

[clarionreef]

Eric,
In other words...the permanant director of MAC is staying and you have to adapt the slow and slower approach to this thing. I understand but what can you do? Its not a Democracy and the director appears to be there for life.
I hope the reefs and the fisherman can accept the slow and slower approach.
When speaking of certified fishes available... are we taliking about Fiji fishes in the mix?
And if so...what % of the availablity is Fiji.
Filipinos in Tonga produce more netcaught fishes then the entire certification movement in the Philippines and the reform and NGO costs were zero..
How many certified fishes do I get?
Are you kidding?
I want the fish not the sticker and the certificate.
Bonafide and verifyable netcaught fishes carry far more credibility with me then certified stuff from the depleted areas of Clarin and Camotes. No wonder all they catch is not ordered....how many saleable fishes even come from there these days? How many halfblack angels and maroons can you use?
How many common fishes would even be accepted on domestic airlines to Manila if available on Luzon?
Who you talking to Eric?
Get more specific.
Thats where the thing gets exposed doesn't it? As soon as the generalities give way to specifics then aquarium people can key in on it and evaluate for themselves.
For example...passing off paper carrying netcaught Fiji fish as progress in the Philippines. Thats a trick that only works in speaking to newbies and funders.
Whats the breakdown in certified product now...especially the excess certified product?

Steve

 

[sdcfish]

Gresham,

Thanks for that post. We feel that the best way to approach the Mac fish is to test and prove before we go full steam ahead in obtaining all the fish that are available.

This will only take a short while to see how the fish compare, and we always take our quality issues seriously. Like any good business....we like to know what we are getting before passing it on to our customers.

So far, we have seen equal results....maybe it's the shippers we are using that are treating the fish equally....but then again, we didn't have substantial problems before so it will be very hard for them to improve on what we already had good results with. We are always looking to improve and lower doa's.

Best regards

Eric

 

[JeremyR]

That's the part that I've never understood about this industry.. even if you don't care about cyanide & resource depletion.. it makes good BUSINESS sense to have low doas, yet so many vendors from collection all the way down to retail really don't seem to do much about it or care much about it. If you can go into X establishment and find dead fish laying around that aren't even removed from the system.. do they really care about any of this? If every hobbyist was rabid about only buying from a quality vendor, and then every retailer was rabid about only buying quality, it would have filtered up years ago and we wouldn't be reading all this.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Eric,

Willingness and commitment of people from the MO industry to contribute to improve what MAC has been developing in the last few years is what's needed. Changing the MO industry set up in the Philippines is not going to be an easy task This will take time but not forever, and the pace depends on how people from the industry get on board.

Greg compare what MAC is trying to do with the "movement to promote equitable coffe". That movement has been around for decades but it doesn't mean that everyone of us is buying "equitable coffe" to help coffe growers in developing countries. However, more and more people are "buying" the idea. The same will happen with "equitable fish".

Improving fish quality and lowering doa's at exporters/importers level are key aspects as you just mentioned, I'm sure importers, as yourself, are doing their best to keep those % as low as possible. Exporters also have improved, we see that, fish quality is better.

However, at community level the situation is different. As you know, fish are kept for extended periods of time, in plastic bags, under negative conditions (low pH, high ammonia, high temperatures and oxygen depletion among others). We also know that fish collectors do not have the economic means to build holding facilities to offer better conditions to the fish. Do you think that is possible that importers in the U.S get together to finance in the Philippines a "pilot project" to set up "basic" holding facilities at community level?

Thanks for your "leadership" and for inviting people from the industry and the scientific community to participate in this forum, also thanks for your patience with some folks in this forum.

 

[PeterIMA]

Eric, It is odd that you don't seem to know the correct abbreviations for the MAC Core Standards (Issue 1, July 1st 2001).

HHT stands for Handling, Husbandry, and Transport

EFM-stands for Ecosystem and Fishery Management

CFH-stands for Collection, Fishing, and Holding

There is no such thing as a CHT standard. I have a copy of the standards document. I suggest that you spend some time reading the MAC Core Standards and Best Practices Guidance Documents.

Peter Rubec

 

[naesco]

Peter and Steve,
Since you two seem to be the "experts", please help us all figure out how we can better guide the three groups in efforts to help them achieve all our common goals.
Here we are all together with open minds, so let's try to put something positive into this opportunity. Between Steve's comments about the "gravy train", and Peter's comments about incompetence, I have not seen the positive commnunication and ideas that I had hoped this opportunity would have acheived
Best regards
Eric

Eric, I think both of these gentlemen are experts (no quotes needed).

Steve has a lot to add by way of experience particularly in training.
Why not have him comment on part of a substantive plan that one of the threesome have formulated. He can do that confidentially with them. Give him a chance to add postively to their plans.

Dr. Rubec is a published expert on cyanide. Give him a constructive role to play in stopping this scourge on our hobby.

Now maybe neither are welcome by the threesome. If that is the case than don't seek their input.

If they are, than give them a chance to add their expertise, because we are all on the same team here. Unless changes are made our industry/hobby is doomed to closure.

I know that there is a lot of baggage and frustration, but unless we all move past that we are back to square one.

How can I add to the solution you might ask? Well, I am offering to serve on a 'committee' that deals with the USL. Let me know which of the three has that as part of their responsibility and I will contact them directly or you may choose to contact them on my behalf.

Others who post regularly may have something to offer. Speak up, eh!
Sincerely
Wayne Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

I'll speak up!


What the heck is a "scourage"?

 

[dizzy]

Gresham,

Thanks for that post. We feel that the best way to approach the Mac fish is to test and prove before we go full steam ahead in obtaining all the fish that are available.

This will only take a short while to see how the fish compare, and we always take our quality issues seriously. Like any good business....we like to know what we are getting before passing it on to our customers.

So far, we have seen equal results....maybe it's the shippers we are using that are treating the fish equally....but then again, we didn't have substantial problems before so it will be very hard for them to improve on what we already had good results with. We are always looking to improve and lower doa's.

Best regards

Eric

Eric,
Why don't you try having a few MAC certifed shipments come in to you in say 50% more water and see if the numbers improve any. I have always been amazed at how much tighter the international shipping is compared to domestic shipping.
Mitch

 

[sdcfish]

Thanks Peter for taking the time to review the standards. I appreciate that and the correction of my abbreviation.

Naesco,

Everyone here has an opportunity to either be part of the solution or part of the problem. I see this very clearly and know what my role is. As an importer, I feel compelled to support the groups that are fighting for our industry, not to scrutinize thier efforts and every move they make. I don't see anything productive from taking that approach. I try to involve myself with the issues to better understand them and make sure I am involved with the progress and process.

I highly suggest that you keep an open mind and rationally think this out before jumping on anyone's bandwagon.

Dizzy,

There is no need to add 50% more water to a fish that has already arrived alive. We are holding fish 30 days to study their survivability. Small studies of many species are being done. So far so good.

Look for MAC certified fish on our upcoming stocklists!

By the way, two retailers yesterday asked us specifically for MAC fish.....it's working!

Best regards

Eric

 

[dizzy]

Dizzy,

There is no need to add 50% more water to a fish that has already arrived alive. We are holding fish 30 days to study their survivability. Small studies of many species are being done. So far so good.

Best regards

Eric

Eric you know as well as I do that is not necessarily true. A fish could very likely come in severely stressed (and alive ) from high ammonia that occured in the shipping water and then die days later as a result. Stress weakens the immune system and allows any number of other problems to attack the weaken fish. And it may well be that to reduce mortality from say the 5-10% range down to the 1%DOA/DAA that different shipping methods may need to be devised. Are you suggesting that fish never come in damaged from being shipped to tightly?

 

[Anonymous]

so which species are currently readily available that are certified ?

 

[sdcfish]

Dizzy,

We do test for ammonia in every shipment. We also use an ammonia neutralizer in the shipping water and have seen great results in lowering in the levels of ammonia when they arrive here in Los Angeles. This is done using the same packing methods.

I think our goal is to keep this economically viable for the consumer and hope that we can sell the Mac fish at the same price as the non-mac fish, and give equal quality or better.

Vitz,

We are currently testing damsels, ocellaris, six line wrasse, mandarins and a few more...and have access to a lot more as we request them. We are trying to take a realistic approach that will enable us to test without becoming immediately overwhelming for us.

My point is that progress has been made and fish are becoming more and more available, contrary to what others might lead you to believe. Regardless of the percentage of Mac fish that are currently being traded, the ball is rolling and it's up to us and other importers to request the fish from the exporters. This is the best way we see how we can show interest to the exporters to pursue more Mac fish. In a long term goal, we will eventually offer only Mac certified fish, and that's what will be available, forcing the supply onto the market regardless of demand.

In closing, I would like to focus the thread back to conservation and give input and ideas how Reefcheck, Mamti and Mac can help the industry gain more support. How can we influence the importers and retailers to promote sustainably caught fish?

Best regards

Eric

 

[Anonymous]

Wow! Great post, Eric.

 

[Anonymous]

once again...


exactly which species are currently available as certified ?

is there an actual published list you can direct to ?


'damsel' is abit vague

 

[sdcfish]

Vitz,

Here's a specific list.....please let me know if you have any questions.

Common Name Scientific Name
BLUEFACE ANGEL (Adult) Euxiphipops xanthometapon
BLUEFACE ANGEL (Adult) Euxiphipops xanthometapon
BLUEFACE ANGEL (Juv) Euxiphipops xanthometapon
BLUE KORAN ANGEL (Adult) Pomacanthus semicirculatus
BLUE KORAN ANGEL (Adult) Pomacanthus semicirculatus
BLUE KORAN ANGEL (Juv) - Stripe Pomacanthus semicirculatus
QUEEN / VERMICULATED ANGEL Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus
SIX-BANDED ANGEL (Adult) Euxiphipops sexstriatus
SIX-BANDED ANGEL (Adult) Euxiphipops sexstriatus
SIX-BANDED ANGEL (Juv) Euxiphipops sexstriatus
BLACK & WHITE HENIOCHUS Heniochus acuminatus
BLACK & WHITE HENIOCHUS Heniochus acuminatus
BLACK & WHITE HENIOCHUS Heniochus acuminatus
AURIGA BUTTERFLY (Threadfin) Chaetodon auriga
CHELMON BUTTERFLY Chelmon rostratus
FALCULA BUTTERFLY Chaetodon falcula/ulietensis
LUNULA BUTTERFLY (Racoon) Chaetodon lunula
OVAL SPOT BUTTERFLY Chaetodon speculum
RAFFLESSI BUTTERFLY Chaetodon rafflessi
SADDLEBACK BUTTERFLY Chaetodon ehippium
AFRICAN CLOWN - Black Amphiprion clarkii
AFRICAN CLOWN - Brown Amphiprion sebae
ORANGE SKUNK CLOWN Amphiprion akallopisos
PERCULA CLOWN Amphiprion percula/ocellaris
PERCULA CLOWN Amphiprion percula /ocellaris
PERCULA CLOWN Amphiprion percula /ocellaris
PERCULA CLOWN Amphiprion percula /ocellaris
RED TOMATO CLOWN Amphiprion frenatus
BLUE DAMSEL - Black Spot Chrysiptera cyanea/taupou
FOUR-STRIPE DAMSEL Dascyllus melanurus
THREE-STRIPE DAMSEL Dascyllus aruanus
YELLOW TAIL BLUE DAMSEL Chrisyptera hemicyanea
SPOTTED GRUNT Plectorhynchus chaetodonoides
PEACOCKLION - Black Pterois volitans
BLUE TANG 1.5 - 2" Paracanthurus hepatus
BLUE TANG 2 - 3" Paracanthurus hepatus
BLUE TANG 3" up Paracanthurus hepatus
SAILFIN TANG Zebrasoma veliferum
BLUESTREAK CLEANER WRASSE Labroides dimidiatus
RED CORIS WRASSE - Juv Coris gainard

Best regards,

Eric

 

[clarionreef]

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:33 am Post subject: MAC certifies first retailers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All Wet Pets; Flushing, Michigan
Aquascapes / The Reef Shop ; Portage, Michigan
Living Sea Aquarium; Park Ridge, Ill
Preuss Animal House; Lansing, Michigan

It would be informative if any of these guys could give the experiences with the certification process.

Cost for certification was between $1500 and $650

A&M Aquatics and Coast Mountain Aquatics were the first two wholesalers to be certified.

New collection areas in the Phillipines and new exporters have also been approved.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And now....May 16th, 2006.....4 years later we have the good news recycling again.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Eric,
A LIST OF FISHES NEEDS TO HAVE THE REGION OF COLLECTION ASSOCIATED WITH IT to be of any value.
MAC certified sustainable blueface?
In numbers to be deemed to have sustainable bluefaces you need to be where they occur in numbers beyond the few phantom old ghosts that still haunt the Visayas region.
And at that, I'm stuck on the first fish only of the list.
Steve

 

[dizzy]

I think our goal is to keep this economically viable for the consumer and hope that we can sell the Mac fish at the same price as the non-mac fish, and give equal quality or better.

Eric

Eric,
I just don't see how you think that is even going to be possible. You told us previously that the MAC fish had comparable survival rates to the non-MAC fish. Where will the money to pay MAC, Reef Check, and CCIF come from? Are you going to be willing to accept lower margins for handling MAC fish? I agree wholeheartedly that we need a sustainable industry. I think the MPAs and fish counts are a fabulous idea. I also favor reasonable harvest limits if that is what is necessary to achieve sustainability. If we need to downsize the industry then so be it. You ask how we can get importers and retailers more involved. You can start by not always putting an overly optimistic spin on everything, and then just tell it like it really is. We want the truth Eric, even if it hurts.
Mitch

 

[nanocat]

PERCULA CLOWN Amphiprion percula/ocellaris

I'm already confused. Aren't these two completely different fish?

 

[clarionreef]

Nano,
Of course they are and true percs are rare in the Philippines.
The list was just a passed around template of fishes said to exist in the collection area and calls into question the quality of the work from the outset.
Steve