A message from John Tullock

[Kalkbreath]

except for the fact that no one has ever been able to show one reef killed off by hobby collection .{ even with cyanide } Naesco how many fish are collected with cyanide for our trade per year? Now take that number and spread it out over all the damaged reefs in PI. There is not enough fish collected per year ........even if we continue to pretend that damsels and lion fish are collected with cyanide . Its like blaming kalkreactors on global warming ......... :wink: I suggest we test some fish from PI again so we can put all this nonsense to rest.......

 

[John_Brandt]

PS. John B., If you can't get your own home town favorite in Chicago, Living Sea to go again...where else do you go to try and convince people to just sign on...pay up and 'trust me'.

John, is this true? Is Living Seas not planning on staying certified?

I know nothing about this.

 

[MaryHM]

Thank you, John. That is very much appreciated. Where MAC is concerned, I'm really trying to follow your advice in another thread and go on a fact finding mission prior to making an assumption.

 

[MaryHM]

I want to publicly state that in addition to posting here (which he didn't have to), John also pm-ed me a more detailed response. If the people involved are not afraid to answer the questions (which I see as a very postive move in the right direction) then I don't understand why the questions are prevented from being asked.

 

[John_Brandt]

Possibly was locked because it's nobody's business what Living Sea intends to do unless they decide to announce it.

 

[dizzy]

John,
In some ways it does matter. Living Seas was one of the stores used in the dealer cost/benefit study, posted here and on the MASNA site. MAC has been using some of the certifed dealers to proclaim the economic advantages of certification. (Pruess Animal House/Absolutely Fish) If some of the certified stores have not realized the economic benefits that they were promised, then we should be able to hear that side of the story as well. Stores that have gone before the rest should be willing to give honest accounts of how things have worked out under the systems as it exists. If these dealers are unwilling to tell the truth about their experiences it reflects poorly on them. Admitting to problems in the system makes it easier to find the best solutions. I'm really interested in learning how well the MAC fish held up compared to non-MAC fish. I did talk to a couple of the MAC certified dealers at MACNA and they did share some of this information so I have a some idea already. If I was a MAC certified store I would be willing to give my fellow dealers an honest accounting of the MAC experience. If it was positive I would say so. If it needed improving I would say that. Positive spin is useful when building a business plan, but nothing works better in winning over established dealers than to provide them with unsanitized facts. One day you will come to understand this. I hope you will pass it on.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

The purpose of the forum is for topical discussion related to the Industry Behind the Hobby. If you have a specific question for a specific group or entity, it is best that you simply go to them and ask them. Had the topic been "Does anyone know how many stores are planning to recertify" it would have been fine. I would also like to remind people to always reiterate when you are simpky speaking opinion, and be sure to back up any factual assertions with the facts.

 

[mkirda]

I know nothing about this.

John,

How can they possibly be decertified?
Nothing in the standards covers this scenario.
Like the mob, once you are in, you are *IN*.
There is no provision for decertification, other than possibly closing up shop.

Am truly curious here.

And how is Tomas Heeger doing? Is his facility still certified, even after the change of ownership and being opened under a new business name? Or did he go through the process again to get certified under the new name?

Again, am truly curious here.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

I don't understand why you would ask a third party about someone elses business. Why not contact them directly?

 

[mkirda]

I don't understand why you would ask a third party about someone elses business. Why not contact them directly?

I already know his answer.

However, it isn't exactly clear how a company could fold, then open up again under a new name and still be 'certified'. It seems to me that when you certify a facility under an assumed corporate name that when that corporation folds, certification would end at that point. It isn't an individual that gets certified, but the corporation. I do not understand the circumstances that would allow certification to be transferred from one corporation to another as this is not specifically allowed under the published MAC standards.

Hence my seeking of clarification from a member of the board of the standards-setting body.

Clear enough, Rover?

Regards.
Mike Kirda
P.S. And John, no hidden agenda here. I can assume a few legitimate scenarios where it was decided that certification can and should continue. I just hate to make assumptions here.

 

[dizzy]

We are all just prisoners here
Of our own device
And in the master's chambers
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives
But they just can't kill the beast
Last thing I remember
I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
Relax said the nightman
We are programed to receive
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave

 

[clarionreef]

..." and just when I try to get out...
They pull me back in..."
Pacino in Godfather 3
Steve
PS. I talked to the party in question for awhile @ IMAC.
He was emphatic, practical and very disappointed in the veritable no-show of the promised certified product.
He voiced his concerns in a letter to the MAC office and was not satisfied w/ the response.
As a fellow fish guy, I understand his fixation on results, reality and real life as opposed to the 'eco-office' cultures reliance on position papers, theory and unrealizable [ by them ] aims.

 

[John_Brandt]

Sorry to bring up this old thread, but I was asked to do it. There was a rumor stated in this forum (I think in another thread) that Living Seas Aquarium in Park Ridge, IL wanted to "cancel" or "opt-out" of their MAC certification. This is not true.

I spoke with Mike Sergey (owner of LSA) at the recent IMAC. I mentioned to him that it was said here that his store "wanted to cancel their certification", "wanted to be removed from the MAC Certified Retailer list on the MAC website" and "had taken down their certification plaque". I seem to recall those things being claimed of LSA in this forum.

Mike looked at me like I was telling a joke. He said "no" to everything. Does not want to "cancel" certification, does not want removal from the web listing and never took down the MAC Certification plaque.

Mike does not read this forum and never even knew of the rumor. He asked me if I would please come here and announce that it is not true.

Living Seas Aquarium is not nor has not sought to cease their MAC Certification, is not nor has not sought to be removed from the MAC Retailer list and has never removed their plaque from view in the store.

Again, Mike Sergey asked me to inform this forum of this correction to a false rumor.

 

[dizzy]

Since you dredged up the thread I feel obligated to ask the following question: Has he reaped the economic benefits the much maligned Dealer/Cost benefit study suggested he would? Ever heard the saying "let sleeping dogs lie?

 

[clarionreef]

PS. I talked to the party in question for awhile @ IMAC...2004 in the presence of the AMDA BOD.
He was emphatic and very disappointed in the veritable no-show of the promised certified product.
He voiced his concerns in a letter to the MAC office and was not satisfied w/ the response.

Steve

 

[dizzy]

Is it ok for someone who is thinking about becoming certified to ask those that already are, questions about what certification has been like? Should the certifed dealers dodge or give honest answers? :?

 

[John_Brandt]

Since you dredged up the thread I feel obligated to ask the following question: Has he reaped the economic benefits the much maligned Dealer/Cost benefit study suggested he would? Ever heard the saying "let sleeping dogs lie?

I do know that LSA was selling MAC Certified fish (I saw them the last three times I visited). These were being sold at a higher price than the same species that were non-certified. The difference was not dramatic.

Mike Sergey is very quick to talk about how great these fish are (MAC Certified are the only Philippine fish he buys) and how "there is no mortality". His extremely positive comments about these fish (coming from Batasan & Clarin) are recorded in the IMAC video.

But Mitch, I understand your question. The cost/benefit analysis you are talking about was based on many more certified fish than had been imported and moved through the COC.

Regardless of what LSA has experienced, they never chose to become "de-Certified" and those rumors in this forum are false.

 

[John_Brandt]

PS. I talked to the party in question for awhile @ IMAC...2004 in the presence of the AMDA BOD.
He was emphatic and very disappointed in the veritable no-show of the promised certified product.
He voiced his concerns in a letter to the MAC office and was not satisfied w/ the response.

Many people know why the MAC Certified Philippine fish suddenly got intecepted from entering the American market. Mike Sergey knew it too.

He is looking forward to getting certified fish as he had been previously. His disappointment is understandable. There are new MAC Certified collectors and exporters in the Philippines and now Indonesia. The recent newsletter describes this.

Again, he told me to post in this forum that the stated rumors here about LSA are false.

 

[John_Brandt]

Is it ok for someone who is thinking about becoming certified to ask those that already are, questions about what certification has been like? Should the certifed dealers dodge or give honest answers? :?

Mitch, nobody is preventing you from communicating with any MAC Certified industry operators. That includes all of them. The MAC website has listed email addresses from "reef to retail".

 

[clarionreef]

"He is looking forward to getting certified fish as he had been previously."

Well, Its been another year that he [ and others ] await these blessed fish.
A year where so many things happened but not the fish.
This defines the crux of the issue well.
Meanwhile genuine netcaught fish have been available from more and more sources. One of the nastiest things MAC puts out is that these mean nothing without their stamp of business.
That selfish, controlling spirit underscores the reason MAC has not made many friends inside the trade....its their way or the hiway.
...and their way provides no alternative to cyanide fish supplies as they don't produce em!
Dealers respond to supply, not platitudes and endless excuses for not performing.
So, the concerned among us are left to seek other avenues...

Sustainable practices, deeds, results, performance and clean fish should be the prime directive, not just loyalty and membership in an ineffective industry front group.
Steve