Terry's paper Advanced Aquarist
- Thread starter PeterIMA
- Start date
Terry's article missed on a number of points.
Firstly, the article did not even mention cyanide.
How could the author ignore this when the fact is that a fish from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant, has a much greater risk to dying in transit than a healthy net caught fish.
Secondly, the author makes it appear that the technologies (now dated) to assist in reducing the mortality caused by stress in transit are used by the industry.
Thd fact is most industry refuses to use these beneficial technologies as there is a cost involved. They want to maximize their profits and care little about the DOA statistics or the effect this carnage has on the decline of species on the reefs.
The only way industry will use what is currently available is if they are forced to.
Firstly, the article did not even mention cyanide.
How could the author ignore this when the fact is that a fish from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant, has a much greater risk to dying in transit than a healthy net caught fish.
Secondly, the author makes it appear that the technologies (now dated) to assist in reducing the mortality caused by stress in transit are used by the industry.
Thd fact is most industry refuses to use these beneficial technologies as there is a cost involved. They want to maximize their profits and care little about the DOA statistics or the effect this carnage has on the decline of species on the reefs.
The only way industry will use what is currently available is if they are forced to.
Wayne,
I agree that the article should have started by summarizing what is known concerining high mortality rates of marine fish in the aquarium trade, talked about possible causes, and then possible solutions. For the past month, I have been obtaining and reading many of the articles that Terry cited. Most of the published research (not all) pertains to shipping freshwater fish. The more pertinent papers were done by scientists at the University of Singapore. Terry should have noted what types of fish were studied when citing papers. Several of the most detailed research papers dealt with guppies and tiger barbs.
Freshwater and marine aquarium fishes are shipped differently (eg. guppies shipped in groups in large bags, marines shipped one fish to a bag). Likewise, some of the chemicals listed in the article (e.g., neomycyin sulfate) are effective in freshwater but not in saltwater.
I disagree with Terry's recommendations, since I don't believe they are practical for the marine trade, where most of the fish are obtained from the ocean. This does not facilitate feeding the animals vitamin C, the use of probiotics, or the techniques for reducing salinity that he discussed. They may be more useful where more time is available with fish produced by aquaculture/mariculture (as discussed in the paper by Lim et al. 2003).
Peter Rubec
I agree that the article should have started by summarizing what is known concerining high mortality rates of marine fish in the aquarium trade, talked about possible causes, and then possible solutions. For the past month, I have been obtaining and reading many of the articles that Terry cited. Most of the published research (not all) pertains to shipping freshwater fish. The more pertinent papers were done by scientists at the University of Singapore. Terry should have noted what types of fish were studied when citing papers. Several of the most detailed research papers dealt with guppies and tiger barbs.
Freshwater and marine aquarium fishes are shipped differently (eg. guppies shipped in groups in large bags, marines shipped one fish to a bag). Likewise, some of the chemicals listed in the article (e.g., neomycyin sulfate) are effective in freshwater but not in saltwater.
I disagree with Terry's recommendations, since I don't believe they are practical for the marine trade, where most of the fish are obtained from the ocean. This does not facilitate feeding the animals vitamin C, the use of probiotics, or the techniques for reducing salinity that he discussed. They may be more useful where more time is available with fish produced by aquaculture/mariculture (as discussed in the paper by Lim et al. 2003).
Peter Rubec
My sentiments exactly.
Which of Terry's recommendations are applicable to the marine industry?
Of any you recommend, which ones should be implemented as part of required reform of the way industry handles the transport of fish?
Thank you Dr. Rubec.
Wayne
Which of Terry's recommendations are applicable to the marine industry?
Of any you recommend, which ones should be implemented as part of required reform of the way industry handles the transport of fish?
Thank you Dr. Rubec.
Wayne
Terry Recommended the following.
a) Hyposaline conditions in transport water and holding tanks for 7 days post shipment.
b) Propholactic use of Beta 1, 3D glucan 24-48 hours prior to shipping continuous through the first week post shipment.
c) Notification of Pertinant Information (between exporters and importers)
d) Styrofoam boxes 2.5 cm in thickness
e) Further investigation into the use of tris-buffers, ammonia detoxifiers and breathing bags.
I agree with c, d, and e). I see the need for more experimentation around the points mentioned in e)
I will describe some aspects of the literature not discussed by Terry and what might be done to improve shipping practices in subsequent postings.
Peter
a) Hyposaline conditions in transport water and holding tanks for 7 days post shipment.
b) Propholactic use of Beta 1, 3D glucan 24-48 hours prior to shipping continuous through the first week post shipment.
c) Notification of Pertinant Information (between exporters and importers)
d) Styrofoam boxes 2.5 cm in thickness
e) Further investigation into the use of tris-buffers, ammonia detoxifiers and breathing bags.
I agree with c, d, and e). I see the need for more experimentation around the points mentioned in e)
I will describe some aspects of the literature not discussed by Terry and what might be done to improve shipping practices in subsequent postings.
Peter
Well, I read it. I agree with Peter that if you're going to make recommendations based on studies done with freshwater fish, then you should indicate that. I also find it interesting how people can make recommendations on something that (as far as I know) they haven't dealt with. How can he recommend practice A, B, or C if he hasn't personally witnessed the outcome?? That's what galls me about this industry/hobby. People telling everyone what to do when they have little or absolutely no experience doing it. I always have to wonder what the purpose is....
MaryHM":75rulmi7 said:
How about from the fishermen to the exporters?
The single biggest gain will be here, IMO.
Capture, holding and shipping to the exporter is the area that needs to be improved more than anything else.
Fix that, mortality rates throughout the line will go down.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
I gave those guys a plug without even knowing it.I will turn the question back to you guys. What are the problems that contribute to high mortality at the collection/collector level of the chain of custody?
Lets brainstorm about suggested solutions. In other words define the problems more precisely and then see what solutions we can suggest.
Peter
Lets brainstorm about suggested solutions. In other words define the problems more precisely and then see what solutions we can suggest.
Peter
PeterIMA":1n3q4a65 said:
The number one problem that contibutes to high mortality at the collection/collector level is the use of cyanide by fishers in the Philippines and Indonesia.
One solution is to have the US government place an outright ban on the import of all fish from these countries or to have the Islands put an export ban on them.
Another solution would be to have mandatory cyanide detection testing (CDT) in the Philippines, Indonesia and the US and use existing laws to deal harsh puniishment against those who choose to violate the law.
I have some other suggestions but let's hear from others especially those who have not posted on this subject before.
Let's hear from y'all, eh!
That is a bunch of CRAP. Yes, cyanide can kill, but handling issues such as too many fish crammed into one bag sitting on a beach in the hot sun for 2 days kill much, much more. If your "theory" were correct, Wayne, then we wouldn't see high mortalities in net caught fish from the Philippines and Indonesia. Got any proof to back up your statement??
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Cyanide used to be a big killer of fish in the trade..
Now I think it has been replaced by the new generation of know nothing eco-oriented shippers who kill entire shipments for lack of the most basic experience in disease control and packing.
No one kills fish like a new exporter and if their incompetence is cloaked in the good eco-sentiment we listen to them and give them a shot.
Even greedy fish dealers relize you have to actually render up a product to sell and make money. Some of the new NGO inspired exporters have set new records in killing their netcaught fishes...while pushing the 'green dogma' and not healthy fish.
Green reformers, shippers and dealers all fail, hurt others and kill fish if they don't take disease control and fish handling more seriously.
The talent to do this exists ALREADY and its simply a matter of having it on the team.
The exporters who deal in cyanide fish regularly have fewer losses then the new wave of green exporters who don't know what the hell they're doing. Retailers and hobbyists buy fish...not good intentions.
Steve
PS. And this, lady or two and gentlemen...is why I have been so upset at the decades last three NGOs who claim this issue as their own. Although they got paid well...these non aquarium people did not train very much. If they did, we'd have more netcaught fish out there and w/ better handling and track record :!:
Now I think it has been replaced by the new generation of know nothing eco-oriented shippers who kill entire shipments for lack of the most basic experience in disease control and packing.
No one kills fish like a new exporter and if their incompetence is cloaked in the good eco-sentiment we listen to them and give them a shot.
Even greedy fish dealers relize you have to actually render up a product to sell and make money. Some of the new NGO inspired exporters have set new records in killing their netcaught fishes...while pushing the 'green dogma' and not healthy fish.
Green reformers, shippers and dealers all fail, hurt others and kill fish if they don't take disease control and fish handling more seriously.
The talent to do this exists ALREADY and its simply a matter of having it on the team.
The exporters who deal in cyanide fish regularly have fewer losses then the new wave of green exporters who don't know what the hell they're doing. Retailers and hobbyists buy fish...not good intentions.
Steve
PS. And this, lady or two and gentlemen...is why I have been so upset at the decades last three NGOs who claim this issue as their own. Although they got paid well...these non aquarium people did not train very much. If they did, we'd have more netcaught fish out there and w/ better handling and track record :!:
MaryHM":3ljb4rqw said:
Dr. Rubec asked us What are the problems that contribute to high mortality at the collection/collector level of the chain of custody?
He also stated Lets brainstorm about suggested solutions
Mary, our personal post adds nothing to this thread. As I suggested on a prior occasion it is time for you to take a break from reefs.org and come back when you have something positiive to add.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Wayne,
This business is far, far more grueling then yours.
People get burnt out physically and then emotionally...and often...
Show some reverence for the dead, the suffering and the disillusioned idealists among us.
People who do not swim...should not judge swim meets.
People who do not know the law...should not be judges, and
people who do not open hundreds of boxes of fish a month should listen to those who do.
Believe it or not...there are actually people in this trade with a sharper intellect and ability to reason then you might imagine.
My beef is not with the 'bad guys', I got over that in the 80's. My beef is with the so called 'good guys' milking this cow but not investing in it, not working with it and not caring for it!
Outsiders of another country, trade or social circle should build alliances from within before telling everyone how things should be run. My goodness, you're sounding more like a Yank every day.
Steve
This business is far, far more grueling then yours.
People get burnt out physically and then emotionally...and often...
Show some reverence for the dead, the suffering and the disillusioned idealists among us.
People who do not swim...should not judge swim meets.
People who do not know the law...should not be judges, and
people who do not open hundreds of boxes of fish a month should listen to those who do.
Believe it or not...there are actually people in this trade with a sharper intellect and ability to reason then you might imagine.
My beef is not with the 'bad guys', I got over that in the 80's. My beef is with the so called 'good guys' milking this cow but not investing in it, not working with it and not caring for it!
Outsiders of another country, trade or social circle should build alliances from within before telling everyone how things should be run. My goodness, you're sounding more like a Yank every day.
Steve
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