Terry's paper Advanced Aquarist

[Jaime Baquero]

I will turn the question back to you guys. What are the problems that contribute to high mortality at the collection/collector level of the chain of custody?

Lets brainstorm about suggested solutions. In other words define the problems more precisely and then see what solutions we can suggest.

Peter

Peter,

The success of any fish business to whatever is the level depends on water quality management and good husbandry practices.


One of the many problems the industry has, in developing countries, is related to handling and holding of fish at collectors level. Serious physiological damage is inflicted on fish while at this level. Fish "swim" in their metabolic products during days. The consequences of this is evident later... at the retailer or hobbyist tanks. Indo and the Philippines are still the main suppliers of marine ornamental fish, almost nothing has been done to solve it despite the fact that the industry knew about it since 1984 when PIJAC had its finding mission to the Philippines..

Jaime

 

[PeterIMA]

Huy guys and gals. Lets keep this civil. All points of view have some validity. There is a cyanide problem, and fish do die from that. I have pointed out (as did Mary and Steve) that net-caught fish also experience high mortality if they are not properly handled and shipped.

The question on the table that I asked was what are the best means for handling and shipping fish from the villages to the exporters' facilities (the part of the chain of most concern to Mike and Wayne)?

Peter

 

[naesco]

Wayne,
This business is far, far more grueling then yours.
People get burnt out physically and then emotionally...and often...
Show some reverence for the dead, the suffering and the disillusioned idealists among us.
People who do not swim...should not judge swim meets.
People who do not know the law...should not be judges, and
people who do not open hundreds of boxes of fish a month should listen to those who do.
Believe it or not...there are actually people in this trade with a sharper intellect and ability to reason then you might imagine.
My beef is not with the 'bad guys', I got over that in the 80's. My beef is with the so called 'good guys' milking this cow but not investing in it, not working with it and not caring for it!
Outsiders of another country, trade or social circle should build alliances from within before telling everyone how things should be run. My goodness, you're sounding more like a Yank every day.
Steve

It never ocurred to me that Mary may be under a lot of stress. So I apologise to her for being brief.
Having said that I think it is important that in instances such as this where Dr. Rubec has posed serious questions and seeks sincere discussion, personal issues are left out of the discussions.
Thank you

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, You have been to the Philippines and were able to observe that many marine fish are held on shore in plastic bags for extended periods. Since not everyone has seen your paper on this, can you describe what you observed and give the readers data of the water quality levels that you measured in plastic bags being used to hold marine aquarium fishes at the villages.

Peter

 

[clarionreef]

Peoples,
With the training movement so severely derailed...
The training of handling, holding and packing was lost as well.
Steve
PS. PIJAC went to Manila BECAUSE of the fact that our original trainings there had already exposed and called into question the practice of cyanide fishing. As a result, the Manila newspapers gave the exporters a black eye in their own home press!
PIJAC went to whitewash this rising effort and to save face for the cartel. Unrelized at the time...this whitewash also STOPPED the training in handling, holding and diver safety...which is what comprises 90% of the trainings anyway.

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, I need you to describe the handling and holding practices that you taught to the collectors associated with the net-trainings that you conducted. Please try to compare that with what was (and still is) normally done in villages where no trainings have taken place.

Peter

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
Everyone whose ever stood for anything worth a damn was under duress.
Marys experience in netcaught fish proved more then you can assimilate.
Her EXPERIENCE POLL was 100X MORE CREDIBLE THEN THAT BOGUS mac SPONSORED ONE FEATURED AT THE HAWAII CONFERENCE.

Retailers and hobbyists do not value the 'do whats right thing' IN ACTION. They want whats cool, whats new, the big variety and at a price subsidized by the mass trade in cyanide fish and poor fisherman.

Everyone who never supported the people doing whats right are part of the problem...not part of the solution.

Words of support are quite worthless, SALES were needed and were not there. Others have suffered as well by refusing to carry the cyanide variety that the trade demands.

People on other incomes in easier and 'fairer' lines of work cannot seem to understand.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Peter,
Thats a book to write.
If you pick one fish. Just one like a coral beauty or a bicolor angel. The answer on that alone is plenty.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime, You have been to the Philippines and were able to observe that many marine fish are held on shore in plastic bags for extended periods. Since not everyone has seen your paper on this, can you describe what you observed and give the readers data of the water quality levels that you measured in plastic bags being used to hold marine aquarium fishes at the villages.

Peter

Peter,

I do not know how many readers are following this topic. I'll put it simple. Can readers imagine what would happen to their fish if they (the fish) are kept in aquariums where pH is lower than 5, NH3 out of scale, no Oxigen, temperature higher than 30ºC, no water circulation, overcrowded aquaria, no water changes and no food for over a week?

 

[Anonymous]

Ummmmm....death?

Amazing that we get anything in our own personal tanks at all...the animals have so many hurdles to overcome just to get here...

Peace,

Chip

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, If you need to discuss one species (eg. coral beauty) then do that to compare and contrast how they are collected, handled, and transported from a village (say one on Olango Island near Cebu) to Manila (cyanided versus net-caught the Robinson way).

Jaime, I want you to cite some of the actual water quality levels measured. If fish are placed in clean seawater at pH 8.3 and a water temperature of 25C, a dissolved oxygen level of 8.0m and 0 ppm total ammonia, what will these WQ levels be after the fish is held in a sealed plastic bag at the village level for 24 hours or more?

Lets get specific. We need to deal in facts not generalizations.

Peter

 

[naesco]

Dr. Rubec it has been posted in earlier posts that the US importer/wholesaler/LFS can tell the difference between net caught and cyanide caught fish. The DOA rate and the death rate in a few days (D??) rate is much lower.
Having said that if the importer is dealing with a lousy net caught exporter holding and shipping issues would continue to cause high DOA levels.

I just want to say that I think that this thread is important.

 

[Terry B]

Naesco,
No, I did not cover cyanide or capture techniques in the article. The title was not reducing losses associated with capture, transport and handling. The title was Reducing losses associated with transport and handling. Sorry that you feel that I should have written on a different subject. I also stated that some use the technologies or techniques discussed, I did not say that they all do. I also stated that I fully expected resistance to my suggestions. However, they are based on my research and knowledge of stress in fish and techniques to alleviate it.

Peter said:
“I agree that the article should have started by summarizing what is known concerining high mortality rates of marine fish in the aquarium trade, talked about possible causes, and then possible solutions.”

Sorry Peter, it seems you feel that I should have written about a different subject than the subject of my article. I realize that cyanide and capture techniques that are used are a problem, but that simply was not the subject of my article.

“The more pertinent papers were done by scientists at the University of Singapore. Terry should have noted what types of fish were studied when citing papers. Several of the most detailed research papers dealt with guppies and tiger barbs.”

The primary purpose of the article was to draw attention to the fact that too little emphasis is placed on enhancing stress resistance prior to shipment and post shipment recovery from stress and the recovery of normal homeostasis including osmoregulatory balance.

As far as the species used in the studies it is true that some were freshwater. This is what G. McDonald and L. Milligan had to say about the stress response being similar in nature between various species of fish. “Nonetheless, the stress response are qualitatively similar in nature.” Since the stress response is similar in nature in fish (yes some are more sensitive than others) what we learn from one species of teleost fish can be extrapolated to apply to other species including marine. You might enjoy reading “Fish Stress and Health in Aquaculture” Edited by Iwama, Pickering, Sumpter and Schreck because it contains a wealth of information and references pertinent to the subject of stress in fish. Stress causes an internal hormonal response that is remarkably similar in all vertebrate animals, including fish. Since the article dealt with stress information from studies that used freshwater fish are still relevant to marine fish. I sited thirty-six references in the article. I would expect that to be sufficient to satisfy many people.

“Freshwater and marine aquarium fishes are shipped differently (eg. guppies shipped in groups in large bags, marines shipped one fish to a bag). Likewise, some of the chemicals listed in the article (e.g., neomycyin sulfate) are effective in freshwater but not in saltwater.”

I didn’t suggest that marines are shipped more than one per bag. You really should check your references about Neomycin not being effective in saltwater, because it is very potent in saltwater. This is what Bassleer says on page 81 of his book “Diseases in Marine Aquarium Fish” about Neomycin “One of the most effective antibiotics even for marine fish.”
I certainly do understand all the concern about the use of cyanide. I don’t condone the use of cyanide, it just wasn’t my subject.
Terry B

 

[naesco]

Terry I read your article twice before posting and once again.
As your article was featured on a hobbyist board I am simply conveying to you what was missing in your article.
You would agree that a cyanide caught fish is already a stressed fish without all of the other stressors associated with getting the fish to the hobbyists.

I am not familiar with the improvements you suggest but wanted to put on record what I have already learned and that is that the ornamental industry is not interested in spending a dime on improving the survival of the crittters in their care. They are simply interested in getting them over here by the tonnes and dumping the problems on unsuspecting hobbyists.
There ought to be a law and one day soon there will be.
Thanks for posting.

 

[kylen]

...but wanted to put on record what I have already learned and that is that the ornamental industry is not interested in spending a dime on improving the survival of the crittters in their care.They are simply interested in getting them over here by the tonnes and dumping the problems on unsuspecting hobbyists.

Wrong wrong wrong. I think many stakeholders on this board object to be painted with that paintbrush. I just spent $20K to try and make my guests stay a little more hospitable in my w/hse. Am I perfect...far from it...but we try.

Where do you shop and we can see if you hold up your end of the bargain as a hobbyist? Do you do the right thing???

 

[naesco]

...but wanted to put on record what I have already learned and that is that the ornamental industry is not interested in spending a dime on improving the survival of the crittters in their care.They are simply interested in getting them over here by the tonnes and dumping the problems on unsuspecting hobbyists.

Wrong wrong wrong. I think many stakeholders on this board object to be painted with that paintbrush. I just spent $20K to try and make my guests stay a little more hospitable in my w/hse. Am I perfect...far from it...but we try.

Where do you shop and we can see if you hold up your end of the bargain as a hobbyist? Do you do the right thing???

I will post what I have posted many many times Kyle.
Those involved in the wholesale and retail industry who post in this forum are the reeformers.
It is the rest of industry that I am talking about.
I know who you sell to and send reefers to your customers because I know you are trying to make a difference Kyle.
Wayne

 

[PeterIMA]

Terry, Thanks for the posting. I would agree that there is a serious problem with fishes being stressed by shipping and handling practices (both freshwater and marine). I also acknowledge that I was wrong about neomycin sulfate not being effective on marine fish. However, I am not familiar with anyone using it with marines associated with shipping. There are several papers that cite the use of neomycin with freshwater fish transport studies.

As to your suggestions about hyposalinity, and Beta Glucan, I acknowledge that there has been research in this area, but stated they were not practical with wild-caught fish due to the acclimation times involved etc.

I feel that your article missed areas like how fish are caught and how that affects them. Cyanide fishing has been a major concern on this forum for the past year and for the IMA and OVI since 1985. This is not meant as a criticism, just stating a fact.

I am trying to engage you and others on this forum to address what can be done to improve the shipping and handling practices of marine aquarium fish. Stress alleviation and dealing with water quality issues like how to alleviate ammonia buildup, low dissolved oxygen, low pH are where I have been trying to direct the present discussion. Any ideas on these matters would be appreciated.

Peter Rubec

 

[naesco]

Dr. Rubec I seems to me that once you take cyanide out of the equation training is the key.
Training in using the correct netting and its repair.
Training in using the nets to catch the fish with little stress to them and their environment.
Training in the means of getting the fish safely to the beach and into whatever holding facilities are necessary to keep them until the collectors arrive.
I am not sure whether the exporters need training. I think they need mandatory inspection to see that standards of care are followed.
What do you say.

On to you Steve, Kyle, Jaime and Peter.

 

[MaryHM]

I am not sure whether the exporters need training.

Of course they need training- when "they" are the new exporters who are trying to do net caught only. They don't have a clue and I've seen way more dead net caught fish than I have seen dead potentially cyanide caught fish. The other exporters who have been around for decades know how to properly handle/ship/screen their fish and take appropriate measures for disease prevention/control.

 

[PeterIMA]

Wayne and Mary, You are both right.

We need more net-training. We also need to train both the collectors and the new net-caught exporters on proper shipping and handling to reduce stress, disease, ammonia, and improve WQ. All of this is necessary. It is not enough just to do net-training. If the MAC just does net-training, and does not address the shipping and handling issues, they will be repeating the mistakes of the previous programs.
Peter