IS reefs.org aiding the sale of cyanide caught fish?

[MicroChip]

I will find you two other sponsors. . . if I or someone steps up with the sponsors then will you TAKE THE HIGH ROAD? This is not going away. The best way to fix the problem is to remove them and make them change.

This is my solution, naesco has suggested one, to.

Read their claims on their web sites and ads if you don't see the lies you are the sponors have blinded you.

Stand behind your sponors that's what you have to do


andy

I have a counter proposal to your offer. I believe that you, Dr. Lin and I should begin a dialogue with the ultimate goal of having a meeting in person to discuss replacing lost advertising funds with grant money from the National Sea Grant Office’s Industry Fellowship National Competition, including matched funds from Maritech Inc. Please have Dr. Lin e-mail me directly for my phone number to open the dialogue. I would then, of course, be willing to travel down and meet you both.

I have always wanted to run reefs.org and Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine without sponsorship (not that we don't appreciate our sponsors), using money obtained from grants, and you and Dr. Lin seem to be in just such a situation to make my dream come true indirectly via your current crusade.

I look forward to speaking with Dr. Lin, and hopefully meeting both of you in person in the near future.

Rick Dickens
[email protected]

 

[MicroChip]

Board was acting wierd for a second, sorry for the extra post...

MC

 

[Anonymous]

MicroChip:

i, for one, am very curious as to who both andy and Dr. Lin are...

 

[MicroChip]

MicroChip:

i, for one, am very curious as to who both andy and Dr. Lin are...

From the Florida Institute of Technology website:

Florida Tech Professor Earns National Sea Grant

MELBOURNE, FLA. July 9, 2002 —Dr. Junda Lin, Florida Tech professor of biological sciences, has earned a grant of $30,000 a year for two years from the National Sea Grant Office. The office has funded his proposal, "ABC (Aquaculture, Biology and Conservation) of Marine Ornamental Shrimp."

Dr. Lin’s grant was funded through the National Sea Grant Office’s Industry Fellowship National Competition. The funding must receive at least a 50 percent match from an industrial partner for each of the two years. Maritech Inc. will provide the match.

Under this new grant, Dr. Lin and his doctoral student, Andrew Rhyne, will continue their research on marine ornamental shrimp. Because of their rarity on coral reefs and delicate nature, these shrimp are a challenge to collect and may command from several dollars to over $20 a pair.

Dr. Lin holds a doctoral degree in marine science from the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill.

and

Dr. Junda Lin:

Research Interests
My principal research interests include biology and aquaculture of marine shellfish and marine benthic ecology. Current funding for the projects come from Sea Grant and local aquaculture companies (Maritech and Shrimp Culture Technologies). In recent years, my laboratory has focused on developing aquaculture technology for marine ornamental species. Virtually all of the marine fishes and invertebrates marketed in the aquarium trade industry, valued at over US $7.2 billion annually world wide, are collected from coral reef ecosystems. Extensive and destructive collection of these animals can directly deplete the target species that already under threat from habitat loss or degradation and indirectly damage the delicate coral reef ecosystem. Aquaculture of marine ornamental species is recognized as a viable alternative to wild collection. We have studied the basic biological processes of several shrimp species indigenous to Florida and Caribbean region, evaluated their aquaculture potential, and developed cultivation technology. Other aquaculture projects including the assessment of the feasibility of growing juvenile giant clams, popular in aquarium trade, in aquaculture effluent to reduce pollution.

Another research focus in my laboratory involves ecology of marine benthos. The local Indian River Lagoon (IRL) is the most diverse estuarine system in the continental US. The species richness in the lagoon is attributed both to its geographical location and its diverse and complex habitats. In the 1950s and 1960s, over 90% of the salt marshes and mangrove forests were impounded to control mosquito production. We have investigated the impacts of such impoundment and the recovery and restoration of the habitats on the faunal communities.

I am also the Director of the Vero Beach Marine Laboratory, a four-acre field laboratory on the oceanfront, established in 1981 in support of marine science research and education for the academic programs.

MC

 

[dizzy]

Micro,
Wow the possiblility of a bb without etailers what a sweet thought. A place where lfs could send their customers to learn without the lure of the evil deep discounters. It would have to be the best educational tool the hobby has ever know. I'm 100% behind it, and when you factor in the offer of some free site hosting, it seems it might really have a chance to work.

 

[mkirda]

Micro,
Wow the possiblility of a bb without etailers what a sweet thought.

Not to be a wet blanket, but you cannot discount the fact that science also has agendas. They are not quite as clear to most people. When I went to the Coral Reef Congress in Bali, I cannot tell you the number of people who thought that, as a marine hobbyist, I was 'the enemy'. A few people were openly hostile. An equal number were genuinely surprised that someone could be that interested in learning about their work.

I think you guys *should* apply for grants to run this place. Just be aware that every source of funds has some downside...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[jamesw]

Hi Folks,

I just returned from a technical conference and I have finished reading this thread. A lot has happened while I have been gone!

I can assure all of you that by close of business on Monday we will have a lot more information for you about Andy and Maritech.

It's a shame this had to happen to www.reefs.org. It is also very ironic that we are the one website that would allow this type of discourse. Yet because we left this discussion to run its course, we may have to pay the ultimate price.

If we lose the sponsorship needed, we will shut down Advanced Aquarist's online magazine, this website, and all that we offer the hobby.

Sincerely,
James Wiseman

 

[dizzy]

James,
How many small ads would you need to replace the revenue that would be lost if the one company left. I am willing to agree to do one of the ads if it will help. If I remember correctly it was $100 monthly is that correct?

 

[King Jason]

I'm sure that if "push comes to shove" many of the members here could make donations to keep reefs.org alive. I know I would. Please keep us informed.

 

[jamesw]

Dizzy,

I'm not sure I even want to "go there" right now although I REALLY REALLY appreciate your post and support.

What I want to do is see how this pans out as we get more information and see what happens.

Sincerely,
James Wiseman

 

[clarionreef]

Hello All,
I'm still here in Manila and just caught up to all the recent posts. Fresh from our new peace agreement and training plan...I showed this post to the MAC field director to let him see for himself all the energy that is brought to bear on this ever evolving and changing issue of industry reform...and how irrelevant it would all be if we simply converted the cyanide users this year instead of making a business out of failure to train and convert..
I never thought that the greatest achievement in this stalled 20 year effort to stop cyanide and make our trade sustainable would result in making institutional liars out of an industry as a whole.
This is why my anger has been directed so much out of those who squandered the chance at reform and allowed the perpetuation of the anomalie. If more than two areas [ that are side by side on the same island] were certified...perhaps companies wouldn't have to fib so much.
If those companies have money to spare for public relations and advertising to futher their claims ...[ far ahead of field realities] then perhaps they could do the following.
1] Don't claim to have solved the netcaught fish problem. It insults and undermines the very reformers that the solution depends upon.
2] CONTRIBUTE to the netting fund that will be organized by AMDA. We will be in desperate need of
A] BARRIER NETTING for 1,000 divers to be trained this year.
This will come to about 10,000 dollars.[ $10. a net]
B] CLEAR MESH HANDNETTING for the same 1,000 divers.
This will come to about $2,500 dollars.
C] Leads, floats, line, wire frames, fishing line etc. to have all the trainees make their own netting during the trainings.
This will come to about $1,500.
All of these materials were puposely left out of the budget to allow the trade to make its own contribution...a real, constructive contribution instead of endless politics, fibbing, fighting,spin doctoring and false claiming.
13 k.. .BETTER to send some netting to go with the training than to curse the darkness.
Then we can all have netcaught fish from the Philippines and help stop the unholy and shameful damage caused by our industryin this country...
Then instead of false advertising...it will be called...well...advertising.
There is so much more to come in the days and weeks to follow.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
AMDA, Manila

 

[jamesw]

Hi Folks,

Bob, you certainly have a point. I am not sure exactly what is going on here and I would like to try to get more information.

I'm going to close this thread until we hear back from some of the people involved and get some more facts on Monday. Without facts, we have only assumptions to go on - and you know what happens when you make an assumption...

In any case - 6 pages in 2 days demonstrates that people are very interested in this discussion.

See you all on Monday!

Cheers
James

 

[MicroChip]

What do you consider a "lot" of bandwidth?

A T3 is nice, but this is an OC-192 backbone.....no bandwidth issues at all.


And the next time you need to buy a SQL server for $45,000 please call me....we sell SQL servers for around $8,000


Dave

I just wanted to add to this thread that while people have contacted us about reducing our costs through donated hosting, our largest expense is the magazine, about 75-80% of our monthly budget. So unless you're also volunteering to pay our authors for their monthly contributions, and our scientific review panel for making sure the articles are up to snuff...

As for hosting, we actually own our own machines, so if anybody's in the metro-NYC or NJ area and wants to donate some colocation, you can e-mail me privately.

Also, you'll note that for hours before this thread was closed by James, Andy was on the board, and sending me private messages, but obviously declined to comment here in this thread about anything I've said. All he did instead was ask that I not contact his professor about the research grant, but unfortunately I had already sent that e-mail.

MC

 

[MaryHM]

I had to open this back up for a minute to discuss a couple of concerns:

1. Bob, the quote you used at the top of your post was from me. I NEVER said cyanide was used in Haiti, so your whole diatribe about your Haitian supplier wanting to file a suit against me is ridiculous.

2. Spawner did not post here using his college credentials/connections. All I know about him is that we met in Hawaii at Marine Ornamentals ‘99 and he was working for a pet shop in NC. To search around and try to go “over his head” by contacting his superiors when he didn’t even use his work/educational (?) credentials from that university is WRONG. It is a witch hunt. You should have contacted him prior to sending any email to his superiors (I assume that person is his superior).

3. The original point was that reefs.org wants to be perceived as an upright, honest place for exchange of information. Spawner pointed out that a couple of the sponsors are blatantly misrepresenting themselves- perpetrating fraud and false advertising. If reefs.org allows that, then they are basically saying it’s ok. Maybe he got a little overzealous by demanding the sponsors be removed, and that touched off some heated emotions in the people that run this board. After the Novak situation everyone is a little nervous about these sort of things. Understandable. But I think this whole thing has been completely blown out of proportion. Advertisers on reefs.org are committing fraud against the members by stating false claims in their advertising. That is the point. Even if spawner had an agenda behind what he’s saying (and I don’t think he does because as far as I know he’s not in the industry), it wouldn’t change the fact that the claims he is making are true.

If I am correct that Microchip went on a search to find out more about spawner- I assume using information he has from spawner’s registration on this board- and then sent an email to his superior, then I am ASHAMED to be a part of this mess. I would like an explanation from Microchip about how/why he obtained the information and what made him think contacting Dr. Lin was a good idea. I hope I am completely wrong about this. Please Microchip, set the record straight here. I like and trust you and find it hard to believe you would do something so wrong. If you did do this out of malice for the content of spawner’s post, then that sends a scary message to the membership. “If you post something we don’t like we will use any means necessary to track down who you are and where you work and cause you trouble.”. I type this with a heavy heart and I hope to god I am wrong about this.

 

[MicroChip]

Yeah. You're wrong. All the information was gained in the private threats he e-mailed and private messaged to the reefs.org operators, mostly chucker, and operators of other message boards. Messages that included the information that he was a graduate student at FIT and about his boss. Everything else was publicly available through the FIT website. He even included discussions that his boss was going to "blow the lid" off of all this. This was, of course, without the consent of his boss, Dr. Lin, and was all obtained in a matter of 30 seconds of looking.

You will also most likely find out what his probable motivations were once we've confirmed them, and it was not as honorable as he keeps claiming. And it never had anything to do with reefs.org.

As for you being a moderator of this forum, or not, and questioning what I did, well you can make those decisions for yourself, but I think you know me a little better than what you've accused me of.

MC

 

[jamesw]

Fellow Aquarists,

As some of you may have guessed by now, there is a lot more involved to this thread then what has been presented. We hope to clarify some of the issues raised here in hopes of bringing this matter to an acceptable closure.

We had a good talk with our sponsor today and was very happy to hear that their mission is much the same as ours. With their permission, a transcript of their email is provided below:

We apologize if our employee, that was unfairly "Set Up" via email from Spawner, was misinterpreted in suggesting we have a method of testing in place for Cyanide or other drugs that are used in the collection of live tropical marine fish. Unfortunately there is not a simple answer. As you know we take all reasonable precautions to provide the best quality fish in the industry, including our principle supplier who is a MAC certified holding facility.

A more detailed response to this issue can be found here.

Reefs.org would like to thank everyone for their patience, concern, and civility regarding this matter. Rest assured, our united goal is the advancement of our beloved hobby towards a more knowledgable, conscientious future. Our member and sponsor participation here is most certainly appreciated, and critical to our community's collective success.

Sincerely,
The Staff at www.reefs.org

 

[clarionreef]

They say;
While we cannot speak to the beliefs or practices of other providers of aquarium life, we cannot imagine how anyone could have higher or stronger moral and ethical principles on issues involving this industry than we do.

Wow....what chutzpah!

" ....As you know we take all reasonable precautions to provide the best quality fish in the industry, including our principle supplier who is a MAC certified holding facility."

So here he admits the claims to having "higher or stronger moral and ethical principles on issues involving this industry than anyone else" imagineable.
If this fish-mail company would do something besides buying the same fish supply as Manila provides everyone they could build some credibility in the area of being responsible, moral and principled besides just saying they are.
These high moral claims are still based on simply buying from a MAC certified facility...that still has no MAC fish... as they are a still myth...only now its 2006.
The entire eco-image enhancement package is just detritus from a failed groups press releases.
Steve

 

[Rikko]

I think the only mistake made here was in entertaining spawner's raving. Good intentions are commendable. Sitting at your computer and passing the buck for someone else to start reform is nothing more than good intentions.

Go. To PI. To Haiti. See for yourself. Talk to people. Visit people in person and get them on board. The internet isn't yet what it could be. You can't direct an overhaul in a multi-billion dollar trade sector from your comfy chair

This reeks of animal rights lunatics picketing an animal shelter.

 

[clarionreef]

Rikko.,

I just posted from the Philippines 7 posts back!
And thats where I get my insight...from the field and not from here.
And thats why its sometimes a lonely position as it doesn't jive with everyones arena of experience.
This place can be a catalyst for change or an archive to report it and ...er archive it.
Having spent time with "experts" all over the map and for 25 years, I can tell you with conviction, there is no more informative and in-depth think tank then this one on the reform issues.
Anyone researching their next grant to cash in on the industrys gross can find anything they want here and in one place. [ooops. I think they already have!]
Steve

Steve

 

[Rikko]

I guess I didn't communicate clearly enough, Steve. I've followed most of the threads in this forum for the past couple of years and have always enjoyed the insights from the shippers, receivers, and retailers. What I've always taken away from this forum above others is that here you have a great collection of anecdotal evidence of the industry's behaviour, and the prevalence of the current attitudes (both from the participants directly posting and what they post as experiences with other people who work in the MO sector).

What I resent (and no one else seemed to) is someone appearing and demanding other people to invoke change. It's not a pot-kettle thing, it's a matter of lazy activism. The internet is about information - get your information and then deal with it. When people try the reverse (get other people to to the work) nothing useful is ever accomplished.

I'm personally not a big fan of outsourcing jobs to Asia. If I want to do something about it, I'm not likely to get very far by harrassing the editorial staff of an IT/business magazine who report on it.

Now maybe I'm completely off base about Andy and if so I apologize, but from where I'm observing, this entire drama arose from one person saying "this needs to be fixed... So you guys put your necks on the line and I'll just sit here."