IS reefs.org aiding the sale of cyanide caught fish?

[spawner]

I have been contemplating an article on advertising and misinformation in the hobby for quite some time. I haven’t spent the time to write such an article because magazines make their living from ads and I don’t think it would get published. Recently I emailed *** Live Aquaria and asked the following question:

I must preface the question with the fact that I researched their site and have visited *** (that is where *** fish were shipped out of and I assume *** has not changed vendors) so it was a loaded question:

HI,

I was thinking about placing an order for some fish and corals. I have been trying to decide who to order from. I have a few questions. Can you tell me about your facility? i.e. How long are your fish held, are they eating when they ship, do you ship sick animals, what is your method of acclimation and treatment of your fish?

Thanks for your time,

I look forward to hearing back from you, so I can make an informed decision.


andy

Here is their response:

Dear Andy,

Thank you for your inquiry.

*** takes the utmost care in making sure the specimens that you receive are healthy and can be acclimated into your tank fairly easily. Our holding facility receives daily shipments from the wild of net caught fish. None of the fish that we have are caught with chemicals so that we ensure the fish will last in your tank as long as it can. Once we receive the fish into our holding facility we will acclimate them into the tanks that we have and watch them for a time. During this time we will make sure the fish are eating normally, swimming normally, and also behaving normally. We will also watch the fish to make sure they are free of any kind of disease. So not only will you receive some of the healthiest fish possible you will receive some of the most colorful as well. Once we know the fish are free from the stress of being brought into our holding facility, and have passed this watch time, we will place them in bags of aquarium water, and then fill them with pure oxygen. Once this is done we will double bag the fish with a darker bag to make sure they are not shocked by the light if the package is opened in the light. After this has been done we will place them into air packing and then into Styrofoam boxes with heat packs to make sure the temperature remains constant. After this we ship the fish out to you via 1-Day Air, and send you the tracking information via email.

If we can be of additional assistance, please contact our Live Aquaria Department at *** or via email. If you should need assistance while on our web site please feel free to contact our Live Help. Our Live Help is available Monday through Friday 7 A.M. 7 P.M. CST.

Sincerely,
Nick
***

We hope that you find this information beneficial. You will also find over 1500 articles full of helpful information on our Pet Education website! Browse by species or topic. Your question(s) may already be answered there. ***

I know for a fact that they don't really know that all of their fish are healthy; they are merely sending orders to a wholesaler that they have a contract with and which then drop ships fish for *** :x . The statement that all of their fish are net caught is crazy at best and nothing short of huge gigantic lie.

Words for their web site:

Because our first concern is for the health of all aquaria, we are actively involved with organizations like the AMDA and others whose mission it is to set the standards for collection, importation, and sale of underwater life. Our Aquatic Veterinarians are taking a lead role and are vocal advocates for the best practices on all issues related to the safety and well-being of all marine and freshwater life.

Another huge lie. If they were that concerned they wouldn’t be shipping fish out of a wholesaler, they wouldn’t import fish from Haiti or the Indo at all. They would not carry fish that they could not be certain were collected in a proper manner.

More Lies:

While we cannot speak to the beliefs or practices of other providers of aquarium life, we cannot imagine how anyone could have higher or stronger moral and ethical principles on issues involving this industry than we do.

They can’t even speak for their own live stock, they don’t know were they are coming from or how there fish are really cared for.

Reefs.org is just as responsible for these lies for allowing such companies to make liable statement in their ads. *** recently bought *** out and you can bet your life that every fish coming out of Haiti has been drugged. This is just one small example why true reform is so difficult, money drives the industry always has always will. Most pet store owners are so greedy they won't push for clean fish and reefs.org has taken the same approach. *** ads directly fund this site and their ads influence hobbyist without any investigation or insight to the factuality of their claims, by reefs.org adm.

Just a small example of a huge problem.

I strongly urge reefs.org and other boards to remove this company and other companies that make false and misleading statements from their site. These boards should take the high ground, after all most of the hobbyists here are truly concerned.

Andy

 

[jamesw]

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your post. Wow - this is a doozy!

Presently, no matter WHO you order fish from (I'm talking about over the internet) there is positively NO guarentee that the are healthy or net caught. Well, except for perhaps one new one....

In short - that is why there is a reform movement. We need certified net caught fish in adequate supply so that educated consumers DO have a choice to buy net caught and KNOW that they are in fact buying net caught.

Drs Foster and Smith (one of the sponsors of this website) are a good example for you to bring up because their site (or email) states that their fish are net caught. Based on the discussions here, I can see why that is hard to swallow. I think it is certainly fair and right to bring this to our attention.

But on the other hand, it doesn't stop there - just like you said. Most if not all online fish stores can NOT guarentee that their fish are caught using nets and not chemicals, and that the fish are harvested in an environmentally sustainable way. So what to do?

What do we ALL do? Should reefs.org drop all sponsorship from online aquarium businesses? Your feedback is wanted here. Should reefs.org only accept sponsorship from online "drygoods" businesses? But aren't those drygoods being used to house and maintain fish that were caught using chemicals? Your feedback is appreciated here as well.

The way I see things - and I am not speaking for the rest of the admins here, merely for myself - is that as a WHOLE, www.reefs.org is making a STRONG effort to help facilitate reform in the hobby. That is what we are here for. We are an online education website - we help people learn how to better care for their aquariums. We spend thousands of dollars a month to that end to maintain this website and to put out Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine (yes, you read that right - thousands as in X times $1,000). Without our sponsors we cannot keep doing that.

Thank you for your post Andy and thank you for raising this issue here. I look forward to reading some rational responses and discourse on this topic.

Sincerely,
James Wiseman

 

[DBM]

Spawner,

I too have heard the cyanide and Haiti rumour. Can you point me to a link or reference that verifies this? Are you willing to "bet your life that every fish coming out of Haiti is drugged"? I've heard this rumour as well and have been digging and digging without finding any reputable references that can confirm this.

 

[dizzy]

andy,
You have defintely brought up some intriguing questions about industry ethics. Is reefs.org allowing this board to be used as a "greenwash"? I have to go now, but I have some more thoughts I would like to add later, so I truly hope rdo allows this thread to go forward.

 

[MaryHM]

Spawner,

Excellent thread. One that I would have brought up myself if I wasn't considered to be "the competition" now. I don't think reefs.org has to drop all livestock sponsors, but I do think they should confront the sponsors that are blatantly exhibiting false advertising and ask them to remove the lies or publicly address how they can prove their statements are true. Unfortunately, sponsors that are willing to remove their "environmental statements" are still going to sell just as many fish. But at least they won't be lying to the consumers anymore.

But on the other hand, it doesn't stop there - just like you said. Most if not all online fish stores can NOT guarentee that their fish are caught using nets and not chemicals, and that the fish are harvested in an environmentally sustainable way. So what to do?

So what to do?? Quit lying and saying you CAN guarantee nets. Seems pretty simple to me. I'm not saying online vendors have to post "We sell cyanide fish!! How many do you want??". Just that they remove the fraudulent claims. Seems like a lawsuit against false advertising and fraud could be filed if they didn't.

 

[clarionreef]

Hello from Manila,
I thought I'd have reported back by now but things have been so busy, eventful, forward looking and promising this week in Manila, that there has been little time to find a computer and chat.
The oft repeated claim to already solved the problem is false. To infer that the available certified variety is more than a modest percentage is also false. The people here in the front lines are fervently trying to catch up to the claims made of progress but the need to declare victory is strong and has made catching up to reality even more difficult.
The few certified areas do represent something. Something to build on. Something to improve on and amplify. Prematurely taking the limited and rather ordinary certified fish supply and purporting it to be universal is perhaps why this reform of our industry is so difficult. Instead of fibbing and fudging, those already claiming victory [to the dismay of Philippine field people] should make a serious contribution to the AMDA net fund drive, to CORL or something constructive.
Reefs.org is not to blame for the true or false content of its contributors. False advertising is a fact of life in every medium. This is a free and open forum and provides a much needed dervice. I don't blame reefs.org for a fib. I'd blame the fibber.
Meanwhile, there is much going on here and a lot of it is good! Thats another thread though.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
AMDA president in Manila

 

[Fredfish]

We spend thousands of dollars a month to that end ...

And I doubt that anyone here really wants to loose this site.

Here is an idea. Do sticky post on all forums asking specifically for a donation so that reefs.org can drop unethical sponsors. Keep tabs of the $s and the number of donations. If you get a strong response then you can drop those sponsors who do not want to be truthful.

If you don't get a strong response, that gives you a good idea of the extent to which there is a grass roots movement towards ethically collected marine organisms.

So what to do?? Quit lying and saying you CAN guarantee nets.

That would be tough for large vendors (or any large percentage of vendors) to do and still maintain any volume or range of selection because there are so few net caught suppliers.

It would be nice if vendors would at liest make an effort to obtain genuine net caught fish and label them as such. I know my lfs, aquarium services, regularly obtains captive bred fish and labels them as such, so it should not be difficult to do the same for net caught.

The tricky part is figuring out if your fish are really net caught. How does a retailer do this if the wholesalers are mis-representing their fish, or are not making an effort to ID them as such? I do not have a ready answer to this and I know that this is what various NGOs/orgs are struggling to address now.

Is is possible to regularly post a list of known suppliers of net caught fish.
Perhaps this is something AMDA can focus on: being and independant observer that can report directly to us, the consuming public, on who is doing what.

Fred.

 

[spawner]

I have to be short here, I'll comment more tonight.

I have been around this industry for about 7 years now. From the beginning something was very clear, MONEY. I have only had the pleasure of meeting a small handful of people that don't have green in their eyes regarding this industry. The small few who don't are the ones that show up at the MO meetings and those that support an open debate about the issue. I have been gathering a long list of complaints that I have about several large companies that are completely taking advantage of this board and every other ad media they can; brain washing young hobbyists that they sell the "good stuff." I am a true believer that the only way to reform this industry and insure that I have a livelihood in the future is to get hobbyist to truly understand what is really occurring. If tomorrow everyone stopped ordering fish and inverts that were taken from areas in a method that is more harmful than at all necessary, the next day net caught responsible caught fish would be on the market. You would have a line for at Cruz's door of fisherman that wanted to do the right thing.

However, when you have large companies that are making completing false and misleading statements, and IMO liable, it muddies up the water for the good guys. Companies like ***have huge budgets to spend on pretty ads that make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I almost choked on my drink the first time I saw the *** ad. I will never forget the time I was in QM and saw the boxes for *** lined up for ship out. The funny thing was that I used to order from QM. That ended that. To see one company that claims to be vets and have aquatic vets looking over their fish, when in fact they don’t, is setting us all back years. So for a company of this size to be making false claims is bad for us all. What about the new guy that doesn’t know what is really happening? We have to protect this person from the lie. That is this boards job, to help the new guy out. If you are going to order online, you most likely have seen BB and have seen the ads. I have killed more animals than I care, mostly because of bad info. In today’s world that is not necessary. It is completely ridiculous for a group of hobbyist; that is what this board is or was to be pushing misinformation. To allow this is to put another nail in the fish tanks coffin.

Ok James here we go.

Right now you can order fish that are net caught. You just have to know where to get them from. I don’t mean a person, but the place of capture. You can order captive raised/breed fish. You can do a lot of things, but you don’t have to order drugged fish. You shouldn’t have to read ads that lie, tell you everything is ok, you don’t have to be misled, and you don’t have to be part of the problem. You don’t’ have to order cyanide caught fish. Haiti fish are not cyanide caught to my knowledge but they are caught with Q. Now the Q is not all that bad. I use it almost everyday to put fish to sleep when we move them, tag, or implant them. I don’t know what the effects on a fish is when you squirt a large dose in its face that has acetone mixed in with it. What is bad is that they don’t ship their fish in coolers, they only use a cardboard box in the nice heat of sunny FL. So anyone that carries fish from Haiti is aiding the problem. And yes you can get net caught fish from MaryHM and others. You can if you know the difference.

So what to do? You ask. Here is what YOU do. You remove *** ads right now today. I will post this on Aqualink and Reefcentral. You start a fund and I will be the first to donate, you place an ad in FAMA, TFH, Pet product new explaining your position. That they are lying and are making false statements. You sue them, or I will. I don’t mind taking them to small claims court, I almost placed an order with them just so I could do that very thing. You call the US Dept. of Commerce you file a complaint, you call ***, tell them about your plans, make them place an ad in FAMA TFH and Pet Product new, make them resend their ad, make them refund customers who have been mislead. Make them change their business practices. Most importantly you don’t set back in your chair and do nothing because you don’t want to lose their money. That is the whole problem with this industry, don’t be part of it. Reefs.org is LIABLE for your actions. YOU have to chose, the line in the sand has been drawn, and you are part of the problem or part of the solution, YOU CHOSE.

I have been on this board from the day I found out about it. I read your ads, articles and on occasion I post something. I am not going away; I have been setting here for too long waiting to post this.

A bit longer than I wanted, back to work

andy

 

[MaryHM]

So what to do?? Quit lying and saying you CAN guarantee nets.

That would be tough for large vendors (or any large percentage of vendors) to do and still maintain any volume or range of selection because there are so few net caught suppliers.

Fredfish, it's not hard to quit lying. I'm not saying every sponsor has to carry net caught fish only, although that would be nice. However, the way the vast majority of them conduct business (not having facilities to house the animals they sell, relying on other major importers) it would be impossible for them to do that. What I'm saying is that knowing this they should remove any advertising claims that state they carry net caught fish only. Bringing in cyanide caught fish is wrong, but unfortunately it's the status quo right now. However, bringing in cyanide caught fish and claiming they aren't is fraud, false advertising, and is setting back the true reform movement.

One mail order company claims in their "enviromentally policy" that they do not import fish from regions that use cyanide. Then they list Jakarta, Indonesia as one of the regions they import from!! You know what, I had this conversation with a hobbyist via email a few weeks back. I'm going to see if I can find it and print it here.

 

[MaryHM]

Here's a portion of the email exchanges I mentioned in the previous post. This was at the end of January:


Scott,

I wish there was an easy way for the general public to tell if someone is carrying cyanide caught fish. One thing to look for is baby clown triggers. Major cyanide target. Another is angelfish and blue tangs. You have to know the country of origin to know if it is net caught, and if you notice, rarely do the online vendors list the country of origin. Want to know if they are importing from Indo and Philippines? Look for firefish and mandarins. Those fish are always net caught, but only come from those countries. As a general rule, if an online vendor lists every species of fish known to mankind (especially triggers, angels, and tangs) then you can be GUARANTEED that they are handling cyanide caught animals. Cheap animals are another ringer.

Let me use *** as an example. Here's a quote from their policy page:

Environmental Responsibility
As environmental advocates, we are dedicated to the preservation of the under sea world and all of its inhabitants.
All fish and inverts are exclusively 'net caught'
We never sell threatened or endangered species
We never sell fish, animals or live rock from areas where cyanide collection methods are used


Geographic Regions
All of our fish and invertebrates come from the regions listed below.
Ambon Australia Bali Brazil Caribbean Christmas Is.
Cook Islands Coral Sea Costa Rica Fiji Guam Hawaii
Jakarta Kenya Madagascar Maldives Marshall Is. Mauritius
Mexico New Caledonia Nicaragua Palau Pohnpei Red Sea
Samoa Solomon Is. Sri Lanka Sumatra Tahiti Thailand
Tonga W. Samoa and beyond!!


We do not sell fish, invertebrates or live rock from the Philippines because sodium cyanide is widely used by collectors in that area.

First of all, NO ONE can import rock from the Philippines because it's ILLEGAL! Next! So they say they don't import from cyanide using countries. Well, Indonesia has a MUCH worse cyanide problem than the Philippines but they list Jakarta as one of their import regions!! I also know as a former supplier of *** and having been to their warehouse, that they do not house the vast majority of their animals. They purchase them from the local LA import facilties. (Why do you think they and other "large" online suppliers don't allow walk ins?) So they have absolutely no idea where the animals really came from. Of course, an uneducated hobbyist (and unfortunately that's 99% of them) doesn't know this and then feels good that they are supporting an environmentally aware company.

Here's info from *** site:

Environmental Accountability
As environmental advocates, we are dedicated to the preservation of the undersea world and all of its inhabitants:

All fish and inverts are safely and gently "net caught."
We don't sell threatened or endangered species.
We never sell fish, animals or live rock from areas where cyanide collection methods are used.

Again, they "talk the talk" that everyone wants to hear, but a quick look at their fish list reveals baby clown triggers, "Indo-Pacific" Blue Tangs (read CYANIDE CAUGHT blue tangs), and the old standby mandarin gobies and firefish. While the mandarin gobies and firefish are always net caught, they only come from the Philippines and/or Indonesia- no place else, especially at those prices.


I can't go public with this type of specific information, because I am considered to be competition and wouldn't be taken seriously. But you can feel free to point out this information to the masses. It's not like it's top secret. All of the damning information is right there on their websites for the world to see- and for the educated person to easily notice.

When you get bored with my incessant ramblings, just quit replying! <wink> Until then, continue to feel free to ask questions. If I can educate you and you can educate 10 more and so on and so on, we've all accomplished something!

Sincerely,
Mary

 

[Fredfish]

OK, you'r right it isn't hard to stop lying. The more I hear and read, the more I think that the ultimate solution will be Government regulation.

If retailers are unwilling to advertise ethically, someone needs to force them. It won't be the public, 'cause we all like the cheap livestock. Buying a lie is good enough for most people, as long as the truth isn't in-your-face.

Any solution I forsee is going to add to the bottom line for fish and supplies (how can you sell cheap supplies if you can't make $ on cheap fish??). Not only in the higher cost of net caught fish, but also in the cost of administering any regulations.

Sigh...

Fred.

Mary, how could we ever get bored of your posts.

 

[Oldguy]

Retailer stop lying. Now I agree that this happens often. It may not be all the retailer. If I place a order to a wholersaler tell them that I will only buy net caught. They reply that they can handle that order so I buy them.
How can I tell if it true? Most retailer will trust the wholesaler and believe they are offering net caught fish. This may not be the smartest thing to do but they do.
Now cheap fish do not mean cyanide caught fish.
When I still own a LFS I priced fish at less then the other stores around.
We tried to keep thing sorted so that people new what they were buying.
Net caught and CB, and wild caught. Wild caught being unknown to us as to how they were caught.
I had a customer tell me I had cyanide caught clowns because they were to cheap. They came from a large captive breeder and were on sale when I got them. So we used them as loss leader.

 

[spawner]

Fred,

What is wrong with you?

Any solution I forsee is going to add to the bottom line for fish and supplies (how can you sell cheap supplies if you can't make $ on cheap fish??). Not only in the higher cost of net caught fish, but also in the cost of administering any regulations.

Cheap fish, lets look at what a cheap fish is and is not.

First, when I worked in retail the most expense fish was a dead one. The most expensive fish was one that came in and never ate, took up my time and energy and died, the most expensive fish was one that came in I sold and died in some kids tank, that kid&#8217;s mom gets mad and comes back to let me know that she is out of the fish business. The most expensive fish is one that has no chance. Cheap fish, you need to get the excel spread sheet out and do the math. When I was ordering wild caught clownfish, I could by a false percula for about 1.50 wild. Ship it, pay for the freight, buy 24 to get 8 to live, sell those, have some die in a customers tank, replace it, treat sick fish. That cheap fish was the most expensive fish I sold. The cheapest and most profitable were the tank raised 6.75 false percula. Receive 50 of those sell 49 of them, never treat them, and never spend time replacing fish that die. That is a cheap fish.

Which would you like to buy, 5 tiny clown triggers to get one that lives for $30 retail each or own net caught clown trigger that is a true stud for $90.00. Which one is cheap now? Why do you think Yellow tangs are not too expensive? Do you think many die, no. I use to order 24 lots and never lose a fish, why? Net caught. Why are Power Blue tang so expensive, cause they die. Dead fish are expensive, healthy fish are cheap. Educate yourself. Make a good investment and save money in the long run.

I had a store down the street selling wild false percula clowns for 9.99, I would sell 10 times of my captive raised ones, why cause people would come in and ask why is that fish more expensive. I would answer with a hand full of pellets while the fish eat out of my hand, that&#8217;s why. Customer, walks out of my store with a health pair of fish that cost twice what those wild ones did. Why, because they are cheaper in the long run.


Fred, the public wants a healthy fish, they will buy cheap fish when they are lied to. People don&#8217;t like being ripped off. When they are made to understand the difference they always pick the healthy fish, which again is much cheaper than your &#8220;cheap fish&#8221;. Store owners are the cheap ones, they don&#8217;t spend the time to educate hobbyist. The ones that do are the successful ones; those that don&#8217;t are the problem.

One thing is very clear, this bullet board needs to take a stand, don&#8217;t settle for anything else. *** much be made to clean up their act, change their ways, apologize to every hobbyist they have sold fish to. That will be the beginning of true reform. When companies are not allowed to make liable statements, and start telling the truth, then we have a chance. But we must stand up and force them to change. Because these large companies are not in the hobby for love or enjoyment. They are here to make money, period. That is what they want. They have contracts with wholesalers such as Quality Marine and don&#8217;t have any thing to lose by making false statements. This BB must not allow companies like this to have a foot hold in the hobby. *** are not the only guilty parties.


:arrow: REMOVE *** Advertisements TODAY. :!:


andy

 

[Anonymous]

Are we allowed to use names now?

 

[JennM]

OK, you'r right it isn't hard to stop lying. The more I hear and read, the more I think that the ultimate solution will be Government regulation.

Spoken like a True Canadian (and before you balk, I'm Canadian too...)

Interesting observation I've made, and IMO a key difference between Canada and the US - Canadians expect the government to take care of everything, Americans want the government OUT of everything...but I digress..

IMO Governments aren't the answer. It's already "illegal" to use Cyanide in PI, yet it still goes on. Not every government is honest, and enforcement can be another window for corruption. Money talks and lots of things can be overlooked while the palm is being greased. That being said, reform has to take place from WITHIN if we are to expect any meaningful change. Each link in the chain of custody has to demand change for it to take place.

Spawner -- your post is EXCELLENT and totally rings true. I've had to bang my head against the wall with a few suppliers and make some serious changes and sacrifice some selection in order to get quality. The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the cheap price is forgotten. It's a tough road to walk because as Mary pointed out, the vast majority of hobbyists don't know, don't care, and will go where the "purty" stuff is, and scratch their heads when it mysteriously croaks, and go out and buy another.

I have found in recent years that CB clowns, for example, are no more expensive than those WC from any LA wholesaler, so I buy the captive propped ones. Never had a DOA from them, people feel good knowing that they didn't take a wild thing out of the sea, I make a fair dollar and have a steady supply of healthy stock. If more species were available this way, I'd be laughing.

The lie is being perpetrated all through the industry. As a retailer, if I am ordering from a "larger" wholesaler (no names, pick one, I've had the same experience from more than one), I am sure to order the fish from Tonga or Fiji or Hawaii, or somewhere where cyanide is NOT used. I pay more dollars for those fish, vs Indo or PI fish, but I am theoretically getting a better quality fish. Hmmm, I still had mysterious deaths, and since the wholesaler carries the same fish from dubious countries of origin, I really have to take it on faith that I really do get the net caught fish I paid dollars more for. In my experience, that can't be taken to the bank.

I'm sure something can be said for handling/tanking practices too, I've had disasterous results from one wholesaler in particular, 6 months apart -- and I had not ordered fish from them in the 6 months in between, because I got a batch with a nasty case of Vibrio...but I got sick fish from them again 6 months later. Not Vibrio that time, but I'm sure glad I have a quarantine system, because I can at least confine the damage and attempt to treat it. Needless to say I've not bought another fish there since, nor anything else for that matter.

It's a lonely road, the high road, but if more of us try to walk it, the industry will be forced to reform.

Respectfully,

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

andy,
I agree with you that the good doctors *** and*** took the Hypocritic Oath a bit too seriously. I also agree that they should not be allowed to prey on unsuspecting newbies who come to reefs.org looking for conscientious suppliers. Come on RDO and face it, when you allow advertisers on a .org you are aiding and abetting. At the very least come up with some type of disclaimer that warns people that some of the advertisers may be a little more mean than green.

 

[spawner]

I few more comments,

First you can add in *** where Mary has her *** . They are just about exactly the same as ***.

To comment on Steve&#8217;s post.

Reefs.org is not to blame for the true or false content of its contributors. False advertising is a fact of life in every medium. This is a free and open forum and provides a much needed dervice. I don't blame reefs.org for a fib. I'd blame the fibber.

Your right in a way that reefs.org was not to blame, up to the point of my post. Now they have been informed, they are in the know. It would be like saying that ebay is not responsible for allowing people to sell human body parts, space shuttle parts, or NYC trade center rubble. Reefs.org is a media that influence hobbyists minds. By allowing out right lies to by an advertiser because you don&#8217;t want to lose the dollar is disgraceful. False advertising is a fact of life but it is not legal and when it is used to mold the minds of young hobbyist that don&#8217;t have the experience of a old many times over cheated hobbyist it should be see for its true nature. It should be seen for the virus it is. It has infected the hobby. It cost us millions, it cost the hobby time, it is going to cost us our future.

One more thing, I will post a bit more on this next part in the near future. AMDA is a group of business that are setup to make a difference. Steve you are the president, you are in charge. You have a member that is breaking many of your principles. YOU NEED TO REMOVE *** from your membership. They don&#8217;t follow your guidelines, they can&#8217;t ever follow them because they are not hold the fish. AMDA is facilitating the sale of cyanide caught fish as well. Steve you might as well be squirt the poor fish yourself. *** are buying influence, they are buying you and this board to spread lies about their business practices.

James,

You asked what to do?

REMOVE *** ads as well as ***. They don&#8217;t belong here, they are an infection that is spreading. Don&#8217;t remove live stocks sellers from your ads, just the lies. The only way these pushers of cheap fish could be truthful is to state that they don&#8217;t hold fish, they take orders and fill them for customers directly from wholesalers. Let the hobbyist make informed decisions.

James states:

The way I see things - and I am not speaking for the rest of the admins here, merely for myself - is that as a WHOLE, www.reefs.org is making a STRONG effort to help facilitate reform in the hobby. That is what we are here for. We are an online education website - we help people learn how to better care for their aquariums. We spend thousands of dollars a month to that end to maintain this website and to put out Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine (yes, you read that right - thousands as in X times $1,000). Without our sponsors we cannot keep doing that.

Yes your are right, but at the same time you are under cutting the hobby, you have a STRONG commitment to your bottom line, you are a bought man if you don&#8217;t see this. You too hold a bottom of liquid death in your hands.

REEFS.ORG must take the high road and publicly condemn these groups.

AMDA must take the high road, remove *** from your membership. They only have paid you off to buy influence and say see "we are doing everything we can, wink, wink"


:!: REMOVE *** , *** ads from this board :!:.

Andy

 

[dizzy]

andy,
To further complicate the messy situation *** are seeking MAC certification. Money talks my friend.

 

[spawner]

REEFS.org Bougth and Sold, what is the asking price for this service anyway?

Opps I mean ****


You just made my point, you have at protect your advertiser at all cost. Money is the driving force here, always will. That is why you will never have reform.

Once again, this board must take the high road.



andy

 

[JT]

Spawner:

Why are you only on this crusade againts reefs.org? You should also be attacking ReefCentral if this is such a dire issue for you.

- JT