IS reefs.org aiding the sale of cyanide caught fish?

[Anemone]

Webhosting is not free, especially for a site this size. Unless you all care to foot the bill, I heartily suggest you take a step back, and propose viable solutions to that problem. So far all I have seen are demands that we remove current sponsors, and waving of hands that donations and such will take care of it. Some of you folks claim you understand the situation, but I don't think anyone has walked 100 yards in our shoes yet, let alone the proverbial mile.

Well said. In two months there wouldn't be this site (or others) to accomplish their primary mission - educate hobbyists! This site educates about many subjects, including damaging collection methods. Without this site, many folks wouldn't even know this was an issue. And quite frankly, the suggestion being shouted to the rafters would kill this site. Period. No more discussions on any subject. Think about that.

Kevin

 

[dizzy]

Webhosting is not free, especially for a site this size. Unless you all care to foot the bill, I heartily suggest you take a step back, and propose viable solutions to that problem. So far all I have seen are demands that we remove current sponsors, and waving of hands that donations and such will take care of it. Some of you folks claim you understand the situation, but I don't think anyone has walked 100 yards in our shoes yet, let alone the proverbial mile.

Chucker,
That statement is not totally accurate in its entirety. I see both sides of the argument and I suggested some type of disclaimer by RDO. Not against the good doctors in particular, but a general disclaimer that warns newbies that some of the advertisers may be making claims that are not necessarily backed up by the facts. I do think it should be in a very obvious place like the home page. Ignorance may be bliss but RDO no longer has that luxury.

 

[Anonymous]

Have the laws in this country been so skewed that a company would sue reefs.org for liable just because they have a forum, even though they were not responsible for its content?

Yes

Even if it might be true, do you think reefs.org has the 15-20k to even respond to a frivolous lawsuit?

 

[AllenF]

Have the laws in this country been so skewed that a company would sue reefs.org for liable just because they have a forum, even though they were not responsible for its content?

Yes

Even if it might be true, do you think reefs.org has the 15-20k to even respond to a frivolous lawsuit?

Great! According to that logic we can Sue the television networks and cable companies for the content of their commercials?

News flash everyone, we can all quit our jobs, We just discovered a way to become millionaires! :roll:

 

[liquid]

I see both sides of the argument and I suggested some type of disclaimer by RDO. Not against the good **** in particular, but a general disclaimer that warns newbies that some of the advertisers may be making claims that are not necessarily backed up by the facts. I do think it should be in a very obvious place like the home page.

This is nothing more than the simple "Buyer beware" message that every consumer should know if they've bought anything in their life. Or do we need to put a disclaimer on everything like McDonald's does now with their hot cups of coffee: WARNING! HOT!

Shane

 

[spawner]

Kevin and all,

Let take a look at simple logic.

Do you agree with the following?

Cyanide is used to catch fish?
Cyanide kills fish and the reef?
Cyanide kills the fisherman?
Cyanide is bad for the hobby?
Wild fish that are net caught are the only type that should be sold?
Selling drugged fish as net caught is bad for the hobby and the hobbyist. Let’s call this the "big lie"
This "big lie" causes thousands of people everyday to leave the hobby because they are tired of killing fish and think that they are just not doing something right?
Selling fish that you know for a fact are drugged as clean fish is wrong?
Placing ads that state that your fish are all net caught and not drugged when in fact you are selling fish that you don't know the origin of hurts the hobby, esp. those that are new and most influenced by those ads?

You would not argue with me that those things are very wrong? These are fact no one will dispute them.

Ok now that we have come this far, let look a bit more into to it.

Since the above is true, then the following is also very true:

1.Allowing a company to advertise lies and liable statements is wrong.

2.Ignoring this because you don’t want to lose money is wrong.

3.By ignoring this you are hurting the very future that you are trying to help.

4.It hurts the newbie.

5.It hurts the company that is trying to do the right thing.

6.Moreover, if you allow this to keeping occurring without fighting it, you might as well be squirting fish with cyanide yourself. You can remove yourself from it, you can say well we are going to let this one slide because. . . . .

7. You can’t sit back in your chair and say but we just can’t do anything . . . .

8. YOU THEN ARE THE PROBLEM.

If you don’t think these points are true, YOU are the problem. You can talk the talk, you can say hey we are doing something, but in fact you are doing nothing but harm. SO sit back while they kill the hobby and you help. You just sit there and kill it. It is not hard to do nothing; it is hard to make a difference. So, sleep well at night, but remember you are never going to see any reform until you reform the lying, cheating, down right scum. You can’t take the false out of FAMA, TFH or Aquarium fish or can you. I say you can. Now I can and will fill complains with the FCC and commerce department, I could place that order and sue the Dr. evil. BUT that takes time. This board can make a big difference with a few clicks of the mouse. You can cut the supply of mice following the piper, or you can just turn the volume up. YOU CHOSE.

Putting a Caution SIGN, you say hey you might get screwed is a cop out. Pure and simple.


Andy

 

[King Jason]

I can see two very clear choices here:

1. Remove sponsors (or place caution message which would result in loss of sponsors, I would not pay to have my logo on reefs.org if they say I "might" be lying). Then reefs.org is no more.

2. We leave things as they are. We continue to educate ourselves and newbies on the horrible practices of some collectors. Just because there is a sponsor's logo on a board doesn't force people into buying their goods.

We can wrestle in this discussion for years to come, but you can't have both. It's just that simple.

We the hobbyists can use our power to not buy from companies we "suspect" of using these horrible practices.

 

[mkirda]

See my reference above to Robert Novak, Mike.

Jeez.
Now, I can see him going after individual posters for liable. I understand that.
I do not see how he can go after a BB though.
I assume you (reefs.org) are incorporated? If not, you should be.

Anyone know the status of this suit?
His attorney's site doesn't say.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[spawner]

Jason and others,

That is a cop out, to stand for one thing and allow another to happen is wrong. That is the problem with this industry. Someone has to stand up and fight for those who don't know the difference between ads or sites. You can't allow a company that has immoral standards to feed you, you can’t allow them to infect you, your users, and this hobby. WE must stand up and fight them. Look, reefs.org needs to find a way or method to get funding from sources that are not lying and cheating their way to making money. You can do several things, but you don’t just sit there and say, but we just can’t. That is why they are your major sponsor. Because that want that control over this site. They want you to get so big that you need their money, you see that is the ultimate control. It is as if you are not able to be free because that have a good grip on this site and any other site they feed. They need these boards, it give them legitimacy to say hey, we are the good guys, wink wink, we sponsor this great non-profit board, we do this, we do that, we sell drugged fish as net caught. If they are removed from these boards they will lose business, people will wonder why don’t advertise on these BB. They spend 10,000 of dollars a month on ads in mags, why aren’t they on the boards. Maybe something is wrong with what they are saying. We start here with the BB and then we take it to the mags. You must make them change and state things that are true, not half true, not mostly true, but the whole truth. They must say that they don’t know if they are selling drugged fish, that most if not all of certain fish from the INDO and Phil, are drugged. They must say that they don’t hold fish, that they have them dropped shipped from an importer, that they don’t have control over the wholesalers that ship fish for them. This is the truth. They must be forced to change, and not be allowed to pay this board and other off, because that is what they are doing. They have you in a pickle, you have to have their money and they know it. They use this board to lie, they use every member to lie, they make us, members of a good thing, bad…

That is why you can’t have a disclaimer. Hey look out you might get taken for a ride we know where and how but we won’t stop it.

Remove them; tell them that you can’t take the lies, the cheating. That scum is not allowed here, and then they will have to change or take their scourge somewhere else.

Remember that reefs.org is the only BB that would ever allow this debate to occur, that is a good thing, but we must be choked by these money hungry companies that really don’t care for the hobby. They are just parasites. We must not be compromised, these are the only place were hope still lies in the hobby, but that glimmer is fading.

Think about it, you can’t cop out on this one, you must fix it. <REMOVE THEM>

It will make us all stronger.

andy

 

[Chucker]

spawner, I made a simple request, and it was ignored. What is so difficult about trying to come up with a way to help reefs.org support your quest? So far, all I've seen is demands, and no attempt for compromise. It is very difficult to take a suggestion like yours seriously if there isn't two-way discussion on the issue at hand.

 

[Anonymous]

spawner

i think you made your point :roll: :wink:

continuing the rant the way you are is not only non-constructive, it may actually end up hurting, more than helping, rdo-and if that happens, then you'll have accomplish more damage for the hobby than any sponsor could :x

you got to look at the (much) bigger picture :wink:

 

[King Jason]

spawner,
I understand your thoughts and arguments. But you must be reasonable about your demands. It's great and grandiose to "stand up for what is right." But at the same time this board is helping the hobby in hundreds of ways. You can't just remove the sponsors. That isn't acceptable. You MUST come up with another idea. I can say all day that I want to live without blood in my body, but when it comes down to it I need the blood in my body to survive. The board isn't free and the sponsors make it so we can have a medium to communicate on.

People are reading your comments right now...people have read through this thread. If you read it carefully you can figure out which sponsors you are talking about (even though many places have been replaced with ***'s). (However I'm not sure you can 100% prove that they are selling fish colleted with cyanide). Will this effect peoples judgment when buying from them...I would think so.

There is another thread in this same section that is from a man in the Philippines discussing this same topic. Many of you may be inclined to read it (if you haven't already).

I'm not trying to "cop out" on this argument. But I would like to see this medium stay and educate people on the use of cyanide then disappear. If it weren’t for this board I wouldn’t even know about cyanide. My LFS wasn’t going to tell me, and I’ve only seen it come up on the news or in the newspapers a couple times. The board is doing more then you think in the positive direction.

 

[spawner]

Chucker,

I apologize, lets open a true dialogue, lets fix this problem, but it must be fix, not tinkered with, but fixed. I have been making such a fuss to ensure that people we open their eyes.

What can we do to rid us of this disease?

Vitz,
Well if I have made my point then you understant that we have a problem and we must fix it so let figure out a way to fix it.

Jason,

I think that they have already seen it, but you never know, maybe I should email them. Look, when you are dealing with this much influence you have to start very high to find middle ground But you must understand that middle ground is the truth no lies, not dishonesty.
agree?

andy

 

[Oldguy]

spawner
While I agree with your

look at simple logic.

.

I have some questions for you.

1. What proof do you have that they are selling cyanide caught?

2. Do you think that it is impossible to have all net caught fish?

3. How do you know that they are buying from the wholesaler you claim?

Now I have not had any dealings with this company and most likely will not. I just hate to see someone bashed with out some proof. If you can show proof then I beleive that more of us would be more understanding.

To me it looks like you have a personal problem with them. Now maybe I'm wrong and if I am I am sorry but it is the feeling I get from your posts.

 

[spawner]

NO, no personal problem. I have been to the place that ships for them. I know where they get their fish. I know that fish from certain areas are drugged. I know this, other know this as well. They don't have walk-in hours because they don't have a place for you to walk into. They are just sending order to an importer. That is how they work. I don't have any satellite photos to show you, but I can tell you from my heart that I have not agenda here. I have been sitting on this can of worms for while now. If you read their website and the email they have sent me you will see that they are lying in everyway.

It is almost a 100 % certainty that they are selling drugged fish. They sell fish from Haiti those are all drugged. They sell fish from the INDO those are almost all drugged, at least the valuable ones. I have talked to other imports, scientist, observers, people in the field, they drug almost everything. In the INDO you don't have collectors that work for a companys, collects bring their catch to market and sell them. Mary you might have to help me with the details and explain how they work and why it is such a problem. In the words of one importer after a trip to Bali, they drug their fish that is how it is, like it or not. I have been in the wholesaler and seen the shipping boxes labeled ***** (remember to ware you decoder) that is how I was enlightened.

andy

 

[dizzy]

:idea: I like that idea about sending the company in question an e-mail and asking for a response. Chances are they have already learned about this thread. Perhaps we should also send one to the wholesaler mentioned in the first posting and get their response as well.
Both of those companies are seeking MAC certification and will probably jump at the chance to come on this board and answer a few tough questions. :wink:

 

[King Jason]

:idea: I like that idea about sending the company in question an e-mail and asking for a response. Chances are they have already learned about this thread. Perhaps we should also send one to the wholesaler mentioned in the first posting and get their response as well.
Both of those companies are seeking MAC certification and will probably jump at the chance to come on this board and answer a few tough questions. :wink:

My Lawyer (Chucker) frowned upon that idea...I took it off my post.

 

[Anonymous]

Chucker,

I apologize, lets open a true dialogue, lets fix this problem, but it must be fix, not tinkered with, but fixed. I have been making such a fuss to ensure that people we open their eyes.

What can we do to rid us of this disease?

Vitz,
Well if I have made my point then you understant that we have a problem and we must fix it so let figure out a way to fix it.

Jason,

I think that they have already seen it, but you never know, maybe I should email them. Look, when you are dealing with this much influence you have to start very high to find middle ground But you must understand that middle ground is the truth no lies, not dishonesty.
agree?

andy

spawner-you're putting the cart before the horse, imho

it would be smarter to redirect your energies into helping make sure that a reliable cyanide test is first implemented and enforced in the countries wher the cyanided fish are coming from

the various sponsors, and most of this industry, btw, is also to a large extent a symptom, or extension, or developement, stemming from a more serious root problem

as long as cyanided fish are cheaper, and readily available, most of the industry will play a part in supporting its use (would you also like to disband PIJAC, or outlaw the APPMA? :? :wink: there are far larger fish to fry) :wink:

if the cyanide is stopped, then they won't be able to, willingly, or not :wink:


by extension-every piece of equipment you buy for a sw tank anywhere, helps to support cyanide

just some food for thought

(you may want to thoroughly read the other threads on this forum that relate to some of the other, more broad, cyanide issues, in order to see just how big and difficult a problem it really is, and why chasing away sponsors from this wonderful bb will accomplish absolutely nothing)

 

[Anonymous]

Chucker,

How difficult is it to find new sponsors? I mean we are only talking about one right? Would it be possible to fund the site through "reputable dealers" and dry goods? Not suggesting that you immidiately take down the banners, but could you replace it when a better more appropriate sponsor comes along? I do agree that it sends something of mixed message, and if you have no choice I can see your point. But realistically how difficult would it be to line up another sponsor in the near future?

 

[King Jason]

Here is what we need to do:

Find some movie stars or rappers and get them into our hobby. Then they can be the sponsor! I mean Oprah is now worth a Billion dollars! I'm sure she can give reefs.org an easy million and keep us going for a few years. :wink: