MAC has saved the reefs.....now lets go have some sushi!

[Anonymous]

kalk:

why do you hate the reefs so much? 8O

 

[Kalkbreath]

The Philippines have been producing 85% of our hobby fish ,for as long as critics have been saying its impossible.[twenty years}.....Cyanide will continue to be used to catch the huge seafood fish industry[85% of the damage}, I say since those reefs are already dead {still the most productive in the world}lets use them to keep other islands free from harm. I also say Hell yes! keep you chain saws out of old growth forests and clear cut the already tainted second growth! I love the reefs, that's why I wish you people would help the reefs instead of solely trying to clear your consciences... In fact I just received thirty-five Ventralis Anthias.... and we all know the only place that they come from in numbers?" Chip to the lou, my darling" I by from Rick in Tonga monthly{ an pay my bill} , Ponope last week and Solomons next...........I also am devoting one fourth of my store to teaching the puplic that there are huge problems facing the reefs and that they can help with the dat to day choices they make in their lives.....The varios dispay tanks {3000 gal} and will let the average person meet face to face the victims of mankinds' sewage..........What is it again that you all are doing to help the reefs world wide?
_________________
BMW K75

 

[mkirda]

What is it again that you all are doing to help the reefs world wide?

Donate time and money to organizations that will help.
Donated needed netting to fishermen trying to do the right thing.
Spent untold hours trying to educate others on the benefits of reefs.
Written articles (and writing more) to do same.

And dozens of hours trying to correct your misinformation.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

I still keep asking you what mis information? It is only that my view points are new to you that they make you uncomfortable........In time you will adjust you emotions with a healthy dose of reality......even Borneman,Sprung now preach many of the perspectives that I raised last year andin the new the fossa and Nilsen book ........about the need for islanders that care about the their reefs health and a need for live coral to be worth money. How the more distructive industries would take our collectors place. ...........What do you think the Philippine reefs would look like if the Filipinos had a valuable use for the live coral on their reefs? If it was fish that were illegal to export {not coral}and coral was what was farmed from the reefs there........just Imagine how they would protect their "farmland " from cyanide use {like Tonga, Vanuatu etc.] ..................................when I point out that cyanide fishing is as ingrained into the PI collectors as the American need to break the law and speed up and down the US roads No law will get our DEMOCRACY to slow down ,no matter what laws are enacted............ .and when Even people like Jorge chime in to agree that juice fishing is not going away.........the hard headed Americans still think otherwise...............I still say find Reef friendly replacement for Cyanide, and every thing BAD that this hobby does to the reef is fixed!. ..................................................... .but then again what power would any one gain if we actually fixed the problem? Now you know why MAC rewarded PI for all their dirty collecting during the past two decades with the first and only MAC certification programs?
_________________
Hero Honda Hunk

 

[Kalkbreath]

Have you ever read the 'Fiji Thread" deep in this forum? This thread from about five years ago on Compuserve shows how easy it is for one of our hobby leaders armed with total nonsense to almost single handily end coral imports into this country. Luckily the coral export numbers that were reported were so irresponsible that simple math showed them to be extremely inflated {by about 100 times and impossible even if every flight leaving Fuji were to be hauling only live coral!} This board is most likely responsible for the review of that data and the Fiji ban CITES has requested so far not been imposed. To few people in this hobby are allowed to hear the other veiwpoint........If you notice on the "Fiji thread" ........many high ranking hobby types are at first very vocal and quick to point out the false claims in the report ............but then as the conversation pogressed over days , many people "backed" out and retracted their statements.not because they felt differently about the topic,but because they were asked to shut up by the powers that be?
_________________
hash oil

 

[mkirda]

I still keep asking you what mis information? It is only that my view points are new to you that they make you uncomfortable........In time you will adjust you emotions with a healthy dose of reality......even Borneman,Sprung now preach many of the perspectives that I raised last year andin the new the fossa and Nilsen book ........about the need for islanders that care about the their reefs health and a need for live coral to be worth money. How the more distructive industries would take our collectors place. ...........What do you think the Philippine reefs would look like if the Filipinos had a valuable use for the live coral on their reefs? If it was fish that were illegal to export {not coral}and coral was what was farmed from the reefs there........just Imagine how they would protect their "farmland " from cyanide use

Kalkbreath,

Now you are arguing from the other side of your mouth. You must be one cynical person- one moment you argue for status quo, then next, for conservation.

Make a stand, Kalkbreath, then stick to it. Wavering between two extremes makes no one uncomfortable but you, and just makes you look irrational at best.

Besides, if Indonesia is any indicator, the reefs would be clear-cut for corals. Ask Eric about the condition of the reefs he went diving on where coral collection takes place. Most are devoid of corals to 120'. Is that the model you are pushing for the Philippines now too?
(The above is based on personal communication with Eric Borneman- Am not sure it was ever published anywhere or not.)

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Funny you mention Hugo, he is the person that over estimated the Acro exports in Fiji ......from the correct total of 10,000 per year to his report of over 100,000! {TO THE FIJI GOV!}and the total coral at more then the Airlines can carry ! ....... Again you listen to the wrong people........CITES does a real job in keeping track of coral exports and wild populations......and math flushes out the truth......and flushes down the people with an agenda......
_________________
Hero Honda CBZ

 

[Kalkbreath]

http://www.coral.noaa.gov/themes/fiji-harvest.html Want to get a feel for whats really happening behind the scenes?
_________________
marijuana plants

 

[mkirda]

Funny you mention Hugo, he is the person that over estimated the Acro exports in Fiji ......from the correct total of 10,000 per year to his report of over 100,000! {TO THE FIJI GOV!}and the total coral at more then the Airlines can carry ! ....... Again you listen to the wrong people........CITES does a real job in keeping track of coral exports and wild populations......and math flushes out the truth......and flushes down the people with an agenda......

So what exactly does this have to do with the topic at hand?
The way the Fijian government issues permits vs. the way CITES counts them? Again, Puleeze... Old news, Kalkbreath, meant, yet again, to obfuscate the issues YOU put forth. Why are you now running behind a smokescreen you yourself created over issues you yourself brought up?

Am still waiting for a coherent response.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

http://www.coral.noaa.gov/themes/fiji-harvest.html Want to get a feel for whats really happening behind the scenes?

Did you read it?

You will find my name there, and I still agree with what I wrote way back then. And you will find that many others do as well. Maybe even you, Kalkbreath.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

With reply to Kalk's comments about coral and live rock harvesting in Fiji. The thread posted is several years old. I should note that the IMA and biologists from the Bishop Museum in Hawaii conducted underwater surveys last year in Fiji for the government of Fiji. The report indicates that live rock harvest is unsustainable and that coral harvest in Fiji for the aquarium trade as it is presently conducted is sustainable. Facts should replace on-line speculations/argumentation.

Peter Rubec

 

[Kalkbreath]

Okey .............................list some facts! Having your buddies come to the conclution that live rock is unsustainable , is easy........But actually showing the data of why you came to that conclution is where?
_________________
Honda CRF150R

 

[Kalkbreath]

http://www.coral.noaa.gov/themes/fiji-harvest.html Want to get a feel for whats really happening behind the scenes?

Did you read it?

You will find my name there, and I still agree with what I wrote way back then. And you will find that many others do as well. Maybe even you, Kalkbreath.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Again I ask what is it that you agree with? You never actually state anything?
_________________
The Whiteboard

 

[Kalkbreath]

http://www.coral.noaa.gov/themes/fiji-harvest.html Want to get a feel for whats really happening behind the scenes?

Did you read it?

You will find my name there, and I still agree with what I wrote way back then. And you will find that many others do as well. Maybe even you, Kalkbreath.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Again I ask what is it that you agree with? You never actually state anything?

Many others agree with what? that the airlines can haul that much rock out of Fiji? Or that Some how people are sneaking in live coral, under CITES.........Have you ever actually landed a coral shipment?
_________________
grilling Forum

 

[mkirda]

Again I ask what is it that you agree with? You never actually state anything?
Many others agree with what? that the airlines can haul that much rock out of Fiji? Or that Some how people are sneaking in live coral, under CITES.........Have you ever actually landed a coral shipment?

I agree with the fact that I do not understand this question. That I do not understand your point. That you argue both sides of the issue, with no signs of stopping. That your arguments are scattershot everywhere, with little sign of thought or logic. That you do not read the links that you post, else this question would never have been posted...

Have I landed a coral shipment? Why, yes, actually I have. One box many years back from a transhipper. Two of the corals are still alive and thriving, Heliopora sp., two Acropora didn't survive the trip, the rest are with another hobbyist I have fallen out of touch with, so I cannot say.

If you had actually read an earlier post on this old, tired Fiji collection thread, you would have discovered that I alluded to differences in the way CITES and governments counted. Permits do not equal actual shipments. Yet permits were the numbers reported. No doubt, some coral is 'smuggled', but the CITES numbers are more likely to be closer to accuracy than the permit numbers. Once this was understood, this whole tired mess was cleared up back in, oh, 1999, and again, about ten posts back in this particular thread.

Guess you didn't read that one either.

Have fun trying to get under my skin.
So far, you just have me laughing.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

I agree with the fact that I do not understand this question. That I do not understand your point. That you argue both sides of the issue, with no signs of stopping. That your arguments are scattershot everywhere, with little sign of thought or logic. That you do not read the links that you post, else this question would never have been posted...

Have I landed a coral shipment? Why, yes, actually I have. One box many years back from a transhipper. Two of the corals are still alive and thriving, Heliopora sp., two Acropora didn't survive the trip, the rest are with another hobbyist I have fallen out of touch with, so I cannot say.

If you had actually read an earlier post on this old, tired Fiji collection thread, you would have discovered that I alluded to differences in the way CITES and governments counted. Permits do not equal actual shipments. Yet permits were the numbers reported. No doubt, some coral is 'smuggled', but the CITES numbers are more likely to be closer to accuracy than the permit numbers. Once this was understood, this whole tired mess was cleared up back in, oh, 1999, and again, about ten posts back in this particular thread.

Guess you didn't read that one either.

Have fun trying to get under my skin.
So far, you just have me laughing.

Regards.
Mike Kirda[/quote] You again are missing the jest of every point. There is no" landing" with a transshipper.........you did not spend hours with fish and wildlife........Also, you still years latter, have no Idea that the issue was with the reported exports from Fiji ............... he was reporting live rock as live coral .... combined with over reporting the number of Acro colonies by ten times! Yes, the CITES permit numbers were used as actual import data , but that was only a small part of the issue.
_________________
Mercedes C291

 

[mkirda]

Also, you still years latter, have no Idea that the issue was with the reported exports from Fiji ............... he was reporting live rock as live coral .... combined with over reporting the number of Acro colonies by ten times! Yes, the CITES permit numbers were used as actual import data , but that was only a small part of the issue.

Gee, I get a sense of deja vu!

Now you are telling me what I just told you!!!

Incredible! Other than I still know what I was talking about, even "years" later! (Well, actually more like 6 hours or so later, as that was about how long ago I posted the previous post pointing this out to you...)

I dunno, Kalkbreath. I think I'm leaving this thread alone from this point forward. MAC hasn't saved a single reef, I don't care for sushi, and unlike the dog that chases its tail round and round, I'm not getting any enjoyment out of this circular 'discussion' with you. Somewhere, deep down, you must have some point, some reason for starting this thread. At least I keep telling myself that. Darned if I can see it though.

I think I just need to stick to my earlier advice. Ignore Kalkbreath. Do not try to counter his arguments- it is like trying to teach a pig to fly: Frustrates you, and annoys the pig.

Ja nee, bai-bai.

Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, There is a report that can be obtained from Steven Why of IMA about the Fiji survey concerning live rock and coral harvesting.

This is from IMA's last e-newsletter.
Peter Rubec

Is Fiji's Coral Trade Destructive?

In Fiji over the past year IMA has spearheaded a national assessment of the trade in live corals, live rock and other coral products. Concerned about the impact of the aquarium and curio coral trades, the Fiji Government in early 2002 asked IMA to investigate scientifically and make recommendations about Fiji's coral collection activities and their sustainability. With funding from the Oak Foundation, IMA created a team of scientists from Honolulu's Bishop Museum (coral ecologist), Townsville's James Cook University (fisheries economist), and Suva's University of the South Pacific (USP - sociologists), matching them with local NGO, government and community counterparts for capacity building associated with the coral trade assessment and management.

The IMA team, together with communities and chiefs involved throughout Fiji identified live rock and curio coral harvesting as being destructive. Curio coral (mostly Acropora and Porites species) has for years been harvested live, bleached and shipped out by the container load, causing significant and visible impacts in harvesting areas. Live rock harvesting by communities has also seriously altered reef habitat and fishing areas. A thousand tons of live rock was imported into the US from Fiji in 2001, and considerably more was crow-barred from the reefs by communities desperate for income and unconcerned (or unaware) about the impact. The majority of Fiji's corals and live rock are exported to the United States.

Live coral harvesting for the aquarium trade on the other hand - which is carried out by selectively harvesting coral colonies - did not appear to be having a measurable impact when compared to unharvested areas. Mariculture alternatives for both live rock and coral are available. Given conflicts associated with this industry in Fiji, IMA has throughout the study emphasized strengthening the local management process. This process should lead to more sustained and effective local management, as well as more environmentally conscientious decision-making.

The environmental and economic impacts of these trades are of great concern to the Fijian people. There is opposition locally to these trades, stemming from conflict with Fiji's tourism industry, and the environmental sector. However, there is also wide recognition about the value of the current export trade, and strong awareness that a sustainable trade can provide critical foreign earnings. Overseas concern is also running high, with CITES requiring Fiji to reduce export levels by up to 100% until a management plan is in place for sustainability. IMA's assessment therefore comes at an important time for Fiji. For further details, please contact Steve Why IMA-Pacific Program at [email protected].

 

[Kalkbreath]

Have I landed a coral shipment? Why, yes, actually I have. One box many years back from a transhipper. Two of the corals are still alive and thriving, Heliopora sp., two Acropora didn't survive the trip, the rest are with another hobbyist I have fallen out of touch with, so I cannot say.

If you had actually read an earlier post on this old, tired Fiji collection thread, you would have discovered that I alluded to differences in the way CITES and governments counted. Permits do not equal actual shipments. Yet permits were the numbers reported. No doubt, some coral is 'smuggled', but the CITES numbers are more likely to be closer to accuracy than the permit numbers. Once this was understood, this whole tired mess was cleared up back in, oh, 1999, and again, about ten posts back in this particular thread.


Regards.
Mike Kirda

NO you still dont see that what your stating was hardly the real issue. ..........{read you post} What freaked out the Gov> was that they report stated that 100 times more LIVE coral was being exported then actually was, not because they used the CITES PEMITS but because they used the LIVEROCK exports as ACROPORA exports! Thats why they wanted to shut down the exports....Its the little things that count ,and you people are very good at leaving out the little facts that change the intire perspective! Oh and you also still have no idea what" landing" is,,so as you sit and laugh, keep in mind that people that actually understand what I am pointing out to you are NOT laughing..........
_________________
economic predictions 2009

 

[mkirda]

and you people

Yep, that's us! Us people, the hobbyists, that are your lifeblood, Kalkbreath.
Better watch what you are swearing at now...

Fly .... Uh, errr... nevermind.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
P.S. Vitz, I think Kalkbreath secretly loaths the reefs and 'you people'.