Charles- any idea how the larval tangs are collected? If it is via nets, what happens to bycatch?
'Fraid not. Back when I first heard about it I tried to get specifics, but came up with little. The dealers I spoke to couldn't give me details. You might contact Jason Frey (PA). If memory serves, he was one of the major importers of these guys.
'Fraid not. Back when I first heard about it I tried to get specifics, but came up with little. The dealers I spoke to couldn't give me details. You might contact Jason Frey (PA). If memory serves, he was one of the major importers of these guys.
From what I was told (more than one source) the "larval hippos" c-quest was selling WERE by-catch from commercial and other fisherman.. small tangs at about 3/4's of an inch.. not larval at all. Being that everyone in this business has a conflict of interest (as the person above mentioned about mary) you can never believe anything anyone tells you without direct documentation of evidence, and how often does that happen? Here we are arguing for god only knows how long over a comment supposedly made by a marine biologist.. and nobody has bothered to post where the comment came from and whether it was a published opinion or not. I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, just saying the SOURCE should be provided in things such as this, or what's the point? Most people will just take it as hearsay, and go on with their business.
Mary
I looked through the site you set out in your post.
Thank you for joining this thread which is concerned about what we are doing to our reefs.
Does your group support the banning of certain species of impossible to keep fish and coral?
Would your group be willing to sit as part of a committee to enact laws to prohibit the importation of certain species?
Thank you
I looked through the site you set out in your post.
Thank you for joining this thread which is concerned about what we are doing to our reefs.
Does your group support the banning of certain species of impossible to keep fish and coral?
Would your group be willing to sit as part of a committee to enact laws to prohibit the importation of certain species?
Thank you
you know, cause its normal for people not to care until its too late. so they find a way to make any statement or opinion or study or research sound like it doesnt have any clout until finally someone offers the big boys in office enough money to pass some laws and bills and such. but dont worry guys, theres enough in the ocean for a little while longer, so enjoy it while you can.
loosbrew
loosbrew
naesco:
I support the banning of the following categories of animals:
Deadly- such as blue ring octopus
Obligate feeders- Fish and inverts that are known to have an extremely specific diet that is either too expensive or impossible to provide in a captive environment. Many animals such as certain butterfly fish and nudibranchs fall in to this category.
Extremely large species- Fish such as certain groupers, sharks, snapper, etc... that are unable to be properly housed by the vast majority of hobbyists.
The needs/nature of these animals are well researched and documented. There's no arguing that a blue ring's bite is deadly, etc... I do not believe in banning any species that does not not have the reasons backed up by scientific data and research. For example, someone saying "I can't keep a bubble coral alive and I know 6 other people that can't either, therefore it should be banned". I would want to see documented scientific research that yes indeedy it is practically impossible to properly provide for bubble corals in captivity.
Someone is bound to be thinking "What about banning corals that can not be harvested in a sustainable manner?". It is important to keep in mind that sustainable harvest quotas vary from ocean to ocean, country to country, and even collection area to collection area. To insure that sustainable numbers of animals are being harvested, it is necessary to have individual collection areas monitored by organizations such as Reef Check and to have the country of origin establish laws to provide for proper harvest. Back to the bubble coral example, you may be able to prove that bubble corals are endangered in country xyz, so they shouldn't be harvested there. However, they are perfectly sustainable in country abc. If the US banned the import of bubble corals because of country xyz's shortage, country abc wouldn't be able to harvest their sustainable product.
When you talk about my "group", I'm not sure what you're referring to. My company is Marine Specialties International, which supports www.reefsource.com. I am on the board of directors for the American Marinelife Dealers Association and the Marine Aquarium Council. Of those 2 organizations, MAC has addressed the issue of unsuitable species. Whether this will ever be a governmental issue is unknown. Europe has banned several species, such as Euphyllia, Trachyphyllia, Blastomussa, Cataphyllia, and a few others.
Hope that answered your questions!
I support the banning of the following categories of animals:
Deadly- such as blue ring octopus
Obligate feeders- Fish and inverts that are known to have an extremely specific diet that is either too expensive or impossible to provide in a captive environment. Many animals such as certain butterfly fish and nudibranchs fall in to this category.
Extremely large species- Fish such as certain groupers, sharks, snapper, etc... that are unable to be properly housed by the vast majority of hobbyists.
The needs/nature of these animals are well researched and documented. There's no arguing that a blue ring's bite is deadly, etc... I do not believe in banning any species that does not not have the reasons backed up by scientific data and research. For example, someone saying "I can't keep a bubble coral alive and I know 6 other people that can't either, therefore it should be banned". I would want to see documented scientific research that yes indeedy it is practically impossible to properly provide for bubble corals in captivity.
Someone is bound to be thinking "What about banning corals that can not be harvested in a sustainable manner?". It is important to keep in mind that sustainable harvest quotas vary from ocean to ocean, country to country, and even collection area to collection area. To insure that sustainable numbers of animals are being harvested, it is necessary to have individual collection areas monitored by organizations such as Reef Check and to have the country of origin establish laws to provide for proper harvest. Back to the bubble coral example, you may be able to prove that bubble corals are endangered in country xyz, so they shouldn't be harvested there. However, they are perfectly sustainable in country abc. If the US banned the import of bubble corals because of country xyz's shortage, country abc wouldn't be able to harvest their sustainable product.
When you talk about my "group", I'm not sure what you're referring to. My company is Marine Specialties International, which supports www.reefsource.com. I am on the board of directors for the American Marinelife Dealers Association and the Marine Aquarium Council. Of those 2 organizations, MAC has addressed the issue of unsuitable species. Whether this will ever be a governmental issue is unknown. Europe has banned several species, such as Euphyllia, Trachyphyllia, Blastomussa, Cataphyllia, and a few others.
Hope that answered your questions!
Hi folks,
All of this bantering is wonderful, and some great points have been made. I personally feel that properly managed aquarium trade collecting could have beneficial effects for the reefs by creating an economic incentive for preventing blast fishing, dredging, etc. I also agree that we are a minor part of the problem.
Unfortunately, none of this matters! The aquarium industry is highly visible and makes a great political pawn. More importantly, the fact that we are a small part of the problem means that we are economically minor as well, and therefore have little lobbying power. Cement making is a big industry in Indonesia. They dredge the reefs for CaCO3, put it in an oven to drive of CO2 leaving CaO also known a portland cement!! This is big business in Indonesia, and puts alot of food on alot of tables as well as alot of tax dollars in the bank. Who do you think is safer from restrictive legislation, them or us??
All that says nothing about domestic bans on importation. It is politically popular to be "enviornmentally friendly" here at home too. The public perception of the hobby will be easily molded by politicians looking to "green up" their image.
Don't kid yourself by again shifting the blame and saying that it is the ignorant people who eat up whatever the even more ignorant LFS tells them, and that the answer is some kind of certification. The cost would be so prohibitive that it would grind the industry to a halt. You may say "If I can care for a mandarin, I am willing to get pay $150 to get certified, and $100 for the fish" Great!! Good for you, but when only 1000 people in the country will pay those prices, not to mention meet the certification requirements, it will not be worth the collector/wholesaler/transshippers time to deal with it.
I am sorry for the long winded ranting, but we will be the target of legislation, and it ain't gonna be regulation, it will be severe restriction or bans. It is too politically complicated and expensive to impose effective regulation, and most importantly, it doesn't make a profound political statement.
Adam
All of this bantering is wonderful, and some great points have been made. I personally feel that properly managed aquarium trade collecting could have beneficial effects for the reefs by creating an economic incentive for preventing blast fishing, dredging, etc. I also agree that we are a minor part of the problem.
Unfortunately, none of this matters! The aquarium industry is highly visible and makes a great political pawn. More importantly, the fact that we are a small part of the problem means that we are economically minor as well, and therefore have little lobbying power. Cement making is a big industry in Indonesia. They dredge the reefs for CaCO3, put it in an oven to drive of CO2 leaving CaO also known a portland cement!! This is big business in Indonesia, and puts alot of food on alot of tables as well as alot of tax dollars in the bank. Who do you think is safer from restrictive legislation, them or us??
All that says nothing about domestic bans on importation. It is politically popular to be "enviornmentally friendly" here at home too. The public perception of the hobby will be easily molded by politicians looking to "green up" their image.
Don't kid yourself by again shifting the blame and saying that it is the ignorant people who eat up whatever the even more ignorant LFS tells them, and that the answer is some kind of certification. The cost would be so prohibitive that it would grind the industry to a halt. You may say "If I can care for a mandarin, I am willing to get pay $150 to get certified, and $100 for the fish" Great!! Good for you, but when only 1000 people in the country will pay those prices, not to mention meet the certification requirements, it will not be worth the collector/wholesaler/transshippers time to deal with it.
I am sorry for the long winded ranting, but we will be the target of legislation, and it ain't gonna be regulation, it will be severe restriction or bans. It is too politically complicated and expensive to impose effective regulation, and most importantly, it doesn't make a profound political statement.
Adam
Adam
I agree that the bans are coming. I also do not think this will be a BAD thing.
It was not long ago that our counter parts in Australia went through having a complete ban. At first a whole lot of people screaming the sky is falling. Reefing the Australian way is down so I do not know how far into the implementation they are. They will adjust though.
Once the bans do happen and again it is only a matter of time. It will not end reef keeping, I believe it will make it much better.
I as will everyone have less selection for the most part of the fish we keep. Corals will be fragged in a way that it will benifit all that enjoy this hobby. It will force people to find ways that are not being looked at.
Some of the importers will make the adjustment and turn towards people who are tank (pool) raising the future of this hobby. Mary has spoke of starting this herself and I applaud anyone who follows through with it.
It will get more expensive, but housing very exotic animals should come at a price.
I believe the bans are coming and I will give my support when they do.
It will force our hobby to grow not die.
Troy
Pontificate means to be pompous or dogmatic, wether you agree or disagree I believe there has been no misleading. I state my opinion, if you find it rude I can not help you. The Pontificating Society is purely fictional.
I agree that the bans are coming. I also do not think this will be a BAD thing.
It was not long ago that our counter parts in Australia went through having a complete ban. At first a whole lot of people screaming the sky is falling. Reefing the Australian way is down so I do not know how far into the implementation they are. They will adjust though.
Once the bans do happen and again it is only a matter of time. It will not end reef keeping, I believe it will make it much better.
I as will everyone have less selection for the most part of the fish we keep. Corals will be fragged in a way that it will benifit all that enjoy this hobby. It will force people to find ways that are not being looked at.
Some of the importers will make the adjustment and turn towards people who are tank (pool) raising the future of this hobby. Mary has spoke of starting this herself and I applaud anyone who follows through with it.
It will get more expensive, but housing very exotic animals should come at a price.
I believe the bans are coming and I will give my support when they do.
It will force our hobby to grow not die.
Troy
Pontificate means to be pompous or dogmatic, wether you agree or disagree I believe there has been no misleading. I state my opinion, if you find it rude I can not help you. The Pontificating Society is purely fictional.
Hi Ernie.
I am pretty sure that there are no aquacultured tangs.
Actually, there are, albeit only hippo tangs. I haven't seen any for awhile, but beginning about a year and a half ago they were collecting their larval forms out of the water column, then raising them to saleable size. Not quite the same thing as a captive breeding program, but very close to zero impact. In nature the survival rates of larval tangs is miniscule...perhaps one in a thousand actually survives. By collecting larval fish who, statistically, wouldn't be viable if left on their own we open up a number of species (angels, tangs, butterflies) for captive rearing that would otherwise be extremely unlikely to be commercially propagated.
I am pretty sure that there are no aquacultured tangs.
Actually, there are, albeit only hippo tangs. I haven't seen any for awhile, but beginning about a year and a half ago they were collecting their larval forms out of the water column, then raising them to saleable size. Not quite the same thing as a captive breeding program, but very close to zero impact. In nature the survival rates of larval tangs is miniscule...perhaps one in a thousand actually survives. By collecting larval fish who, statistically, wouldn't be viable if left on their own we open up a number of species (angels, tangs, butterflies) for captive rearing that would otherwise be extremely unlikely to be commercially propagated.
We've got an orange winged amazon parrot. Fifteen years ago people were buying imported birds at a fraction of the cost. Of course they had behavioral problems and disease, not to mention the impact on wild populations that caused them to be banned.
Nowadays, there are _many_ species of captive raised birds available for sale. I can't imagine who would want an imported bird.
Not a perfect analogy, but very close. Yes, there will be some species of corals that will not be available, but we'll have to deal with that for the better of the reefs.
Jeff
Nowadays, there are _many_ species of captive raised birds available for sale. I can't imagine who would want an imported bird.
Not a perfect analogy, but very close. Yes, there will be some species of corals that will not be available, but we'll have to deal with that for the better of the reefs.
Jeff
IMO the only possible solution is restrictions at the wholesale importer levels and possibly collection points. If the US stops importing certain corals, I'm sure many other contries will not and the damage to the reefs will continue. This is where a self imposed regulation would possibly be preferential to government regulation. A hobby based solution would be ideal as it could cross political barriers easier than governmental regulations.
I doubt it would work though. The key is that whether or not I refuse to buy a gonipora won't make little or no impact but education of the masses or restrictions would.
My 2 cents, Nathan
FWIW, Nathan
I doubt it would work though. The key is that whether or not I refuse to buy a gonipora won't make little or no impact but education of the masses or restrictions would.
My 2 cents, Nathan
FWIW, Nathan
If the US stops importing certain corals, I'm sure many other contries will not and the damage to the reefs will continue.
Actually, us and Japan are the only two significant importers of coral left that don't have some form of regulation already in place. Norway has for years, and in this past year there have been limited bans in Europe (species specific) and a more general ban in Australia.
Actually, us and Japan are the only two significant importers of coral left that don't have some form of regulation already in place. Norway has for years, and in this past year there have been limited bans in Europe (species specific) and a more general ban in Australia.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
When we were young,
Take a scroll back a few years and look at the posts when the concern was new...or newly given a forum.
In many areas Mary talks about 'educating the hobyist and retailers' about the things kept hidden from them in this trade.
As the first forum moderator, she enabled, prodded and facilitated no holds barred discussion on any and all topics. The plurality of opinion was good to see and the shift in mindsets as well from various posters back then.
This was the pre-calkian era. I found it intriguing and refreshing and feel a need to respond to 2 year old posts more than the present ones actually.
Steve
Take a scroll back a few years and look at the posts when the concern was new...or newly given a forum.
In many areas Mary talks about 'educating the hobyist and retailers' about the things kept hidden from them in this trade.
As the first forum moderator, she enabled, prodded and facilitated no holds barred discussion on any and all topics. The plurality of opinion was good to see and the shift in mindsets as well from various posters back then.
This was the pre-calkian era. I found it intriguing and refreshing and feel a need to respond to 2 year old posts more than the present ones actually.
Steve
Did you also notice that not one time did any of the participants actually site any specific damage or impact that our hobby brought to the reefs. ? There is no place on the planet which this hobby has impacted the reefs ............. Other then the use of cyanide. No place has the collection of coral or fish affected the health of the reefs . There have been some lagoons in which the over collection of LSP corals has decreased their numbers. But the curio trade is mostly responsible for that . You see the majority of LPS corals are brown . Brown is of no use to this trade.........but brown corals look just like neon blue corals when dried and bleached white!...Ever been to the shell man in Key Largo or Panama beach? Thousands of dried corals ......Again .......people just love to go on and on again about the destruction ......with out ever bothering to list where the destruction Is located!
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