Not My Fault Mentality

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, I partly agree with you. The study conducted by IMA along with Bishop Museaum staff and biologists from Fiji found that there was evidence that the removal of coral rock for construction, dry coral for the curio trade, and live rock for the aquarium trade were having detrimental effects on the reefs in the communities involved in these types of live rock harvest in Fiji. By contrast, there was very little harmful effect that could be documented from the collection of live corals for export to the aquarium trade. Further studies are needed, but it seems that live coral harvest, coral farming, and live rock aquaculture (artificial rock placed on reefs), may be more economically beneficial to the villages in Fiji than the removal of natural live rock for construction, and the aquarium trade. Some regulation of the harvest of live rock in Fiji may be necessary to control destructive harvesting practices and protect coral reef communities.

Peter

Do you also agree at least in part that if the collection of liverock was not limited to one island out of the 1200 islands of which make up what is known as FIJI..........a more spread out area of collection would lessen the collection impact to all most nil? Or at least if the collection was divided by all the islands, collection impact would decrease to ONE TWELVE HUNDREDTH of what it is today?

 

[mkirda]

There has never been a reef harmed by the live coral trade. Perhaps a bit fewer super neon colored corals .....but never enough to denude a reef and compromise its heath.

And yet a Hobbyist can go and visit areas in Indonesia and find reefs that have been denuded from coral collection. And find that LPS corals that have been virtually eliminated from the area unless at depth- Corals that previously were rather common and have become extremely rare.

I don't want to argue about LR- It can be locally over-collected. That much is clear. Spreading out collection areas is the best solution. But to suggest that collection is going to take place on all 1200 islands of Fiji, when most of them are uninhabited, is ridiculous. It isn't needed.

 

[mkirda]

Or at least if the collection was divided by all the islands, collection impact would decrease to ONE TWELVE HUNDREDTH of what it is today?

Why do you assume that 1200 islands all have equal amounts of coastlines with equal numbers and sizes of reefs?

 

[mkirda]

Tell me one coral that has become scarce due to over collection on any reef anywhere? {PS..super neon green is not a species}

Cataphyllia sp. in most, if not all, major collection areas in Indonesia.
It is now quite rare.
Trachyphyllia sp. are also nearly gone from the clear, upper waters, and most species are coming from either turbid areas or deep depths these days.

There, you have two genera.

 

[hdtran]

ZBT,

Check out a copy of "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Bob Fenner from your local library (or better, buy it thru one of the click-thru links here :wink: ).

Look at page 164 for a photo of a reef with hardly any color or fish.

To me, it's not the quantity of the damage, but rather, the method of collection is just plain wrong (like slash-and-burn agriculture).

 

[Kalkbreath]

There has never been a reef harmed by the live coral trade. Perhaps a bit fewer super neon colored corals .....but never enough to denude a reef and compromise its heath.

And yet a Hobbyist can go and visit areas in Indonesia and find reefs that have been denuded from coral collection. And find that LPS corals that have been virtually eliminated from the area unless at depth- Corals that previously were rather common and have become extremely rare.

I don't want to argue about LR- It can be locally over-collected. That much is clear. Spreading out collection areas is the best solution. But to suggest that collection is going to take place on all 1200 islands of Fiji, when most of them are uninhabited, is ridiculous. It isn't needed.

Total bs........there is no market for brown lps corals ...even dull pink or green dont sell .........not at any price. ....no one collects brown corals and most coral are brown....If CITES STATES YOU CAN ONLY SEND TWENTY PLATE CORALS THIS WEEK WHY WOULD THE COLLECTORS COLLECT BROWN PLATE CORALS.I can also point out that even if you add up every single coral exported for the last twenty years from INDONESIA CITES report totals.........its not enough to denude any of the reefs of Indonesia .......{or are you going to tell me that 99 corals die for one to reach the consumer ?} :roll:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Tell me one coral that has become scarce due to over collection on any reef anywhere? {PS..super neon green is not a species}

Cataphyllia sp. in most, if not all, major collection areas in Indonesia.
It is now quite rare.
Trachyphyllia sp. are also nearly gone from the clear, upper waters, and most species are coming from either turbid areas or deep depths these days.

There, you have two genera.

Cataphylllia might be the only exception. Cataphyllia was rare to begin with and the natural gaul disease is also responsible the missing elegant corals. CITES has many tight restrictions on certain corals Cataphyllia is NOT one of them ........so while some lagoons might have been plundered.....there is no shortage in the eyes of CITES or any the exporters lists. AND the demand for CATAPHYLLIA is so low in todays market that im sure the wild populations will rebound in a few short years.

 

[Kalkbreath]

ZBT,

Check out a copy of "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Bob Fenner from your local library (or better, buy it thru one of the click-thru links here :wink: ).

Look at page 164 for a photo of a reef with hardly any color or fish.

To me, it's not the quantity of the damage, but rather, the method of collection is just plain wrong (like slash-and-burn agriculture).

YOu mean like every reef in the Carribean?Most coral reefs world wide are not brightly colored....... other then the sponges. I have not seen the photo in question but I can take a photo of my hairy back and claim over collection is why there are no coral growing on my back.........Take a look at any healthy colorfull coral reef photo and explain how the majority of the corals in the picture could be collected? Collectors have to search far and wide just to find the correct size, access to the base and color etc.. Think about it ? How much of what you see for sale in the LFS have you ever even seen in a wild reef scene?

 

[Anonymous]

You can speculate on this all you want Kalk, but until you go and see for yourself, you'll never know, huh?

I can give you some addresses to go look at, if you ever do go. Check out the piles out back, and the "tools" they use inside, if you ever make it there. I may be there this year, if I do, I'll click some photo's just for you.

 

[Kalkbreath]

You can speculate on this all you want Kalk, but until you go and see for yourself, you'll never know, huh?

I can give you some addresses to go look at, if you ever do go. Check out the piles out back, and the "tools" they use inside, if you ever make it there. I may be there this year, if I do, I'll click some photo's just for you.

Its actually a much shorter plane ride to the "Shell man} in Key Largo ........Marathon .......Destin beach ........Panamacity beach FLA USA. :wink: Up until a few years ago the curio trade imported five times that of the live coral tade in "coral" . There are many reasons for the lack of coral on some reefs ........Our hobby imports about three Walmart tractor trailers in coral by weight. around one millionth of one percent on the live coral in Indonesia. Whats the average weight of live coral on one kilometer squareof reef in Indonesia? What the weight of corals imported from Indonesia to the USA? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Whats the price of tea in China?

 

[mkirda]

Total bs.

Really? So you are saying that the report issued by Andy Bruckner that was re-written for the hobbyists by Eric Borneman is all a lie now? That Eric made all of this up after visiting Indonesia and diving in the major collection areas?

Do you also believe that NASA faked the Apollo missions?

 

[mkirda]

the demand for CATAPHYLLIA is so low in todays market that im sure the wild populations will rebound in a few short years.

You obviously don't know the life history of Cataphyllia either.

*IF* they rebound: They probably won't even with the current collection pressures.
These corals take more than "a few short years" to grow.

 

[Anonymous]

ZBT,

Check out a copy of "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Bob Fenner from your local library (or better, buy it thru one of the click-thru links here :wink: ).

Look at page 164 for a photo of a reef with hardly any color or fish.

To me, it's not the quantity of the damage, but rather, the method of collection is just plain wrong (like slash-and-burn agriculture).

YOu mean like every reef in the Carribean?Most coral reefs world wide are not brightly colored....... other then the sponges. I have not seen the photo in question but I can take a photo of my hairy back and claim over collection is why there are no coral growing on my back.........Take a look at any healthy colorfull coral reef photo and explain how the majority of the corals in the picture could be collected? Collectors have to search far and wide just to find the correct size, access to the base and color etc.. Think about it ? How much of what you see for sale in the LFS have you ever even seen in a wild reef scene?

Kalk, I beg to differ. I was lucky enough from 1967 to 1969 to visit a coral reef 3 hrs south of Manila. It was very vibrant in color! Bold enough in color to make a very lasting impression. I think you need to visit *one* before you go any futher. And if I could remember which reef it was, (Tacloban is sticking in my head, but I can't find that on a map) I'd be asking Horge about the condition of it.

And PLEASE, keep all pictures of your hairy back to your self :wink:

 

[mkirda]

I was lucky enough from 1967 to 1969 to visit a coral reef 3 hrs south of Manila. And if I could remember which reef it was, (Tacloban is sticking in my head, but I can't find that on a map) I'd be asking Horge about the condition of it.

That sounds like the Batangas/Anilao region.
My first Pacific dive was there.
http://www.portulano.com/divesites.htm has a mediocre map with names.

And, yes, it is still quite colorful.

Regards.
Mike Kirda