Bare Bottom or Deep Sand Bed for Reef Tank

[Simon Garratt]

Simon,

I read through your articals in your website related to DSB, they are so informative and I will read couple more times.

Is it good idea to have engineer goby for the deep sand bed?

I hate deep sand bed in the display tank. Luckily I have a 6'(L)x3'(W) x 2' (H) sump (280G) with more than 1000 Lbs. live rock in it for 12 years. I am thinking to put 6" sand in the sump and pile all the live rocks on top of the sand, but your website suggests not to put live rock on DSB to avoid packing the sand. Do you think I should throw away all my 1000Lbs. live rocks and only keep the sand in sump?

My display tanks has 350G. A picture of my sump is attached.


James

Hi James. sorry about the delay in response, been a bit of a mad day fine tuning my presentation for IMAC.

To answer your questions.

I tend to steer clear of any compulsive diggers or preditors of substrates, relying solely on passive sifters such as cucumbers or small hermits. Cucumbers are great as they turn over the top layer taking in sand and grinding off the bacterial layers as it passes through. this is good as it paves the way for a constant influx of newer more efficient bacteria. Due to the slow feeding action, most mobile life manages to avoid getting sucked up so cucumbers represent probably the least detrimental method of turning over the surface layers keeping diffusion working effectively. The rest of the beds function is left solely to the critter population, the more there is, the more avivity there is within the upper layers which is why its so important to avoid species that predate on them. Diggers can also upset the boundry layers of the bed to often as well, causing constantly fluctuating diifusion rates as sand gets built up in some areas whilst lowerd in others....basically, your after stability of the layers if you want an easy life.

As for the Rock, then yes, id deffinately say to keep it out of the bed. A small amount placed in there in the early stages to transfere some diversity across, is fine, but not for too long otherwise it will compact the sand underneith preventing life from burrowing through those regions which will reduce efficiency. Plus, it takes away part of your surface area.

If you still want to use the rock, why not add on a seperate plastic tub teed off from the main sump after the DSB and skimmer and feed the water through here before returning it to the tank. Doing it this way you also reduce the chances of clogging the rock with large amounts of detritus over time as the bulk of this will have been dealt with prior in the filtration chain.

Regards

Simon.

 

[dickenscd]

Simon,

Thank you very much for the information. I don't think my wife can tolerate another big tub to hold 1,000 Lbs. live rock in addition to my existing 280G sump.

Are you telling me the benefit of DSB in 280G sump will overweigh the benefit of 1,000 Lbs live rocks? Please clarify and confirm again before I put my 1,000 Lbs. live rocks on sale.

Just for information, I already have at least 500 Lbs. live rocks in my bare bottom 350G display tanks.


James

 

[tomtoothdoc]

i have a lot of flow in my 200 gal. hated when the sand piled up or get bald spots from the flow in my old tank so i got bb display and a remote 55 gal. 6-7" dsb.

 

[tomtoothdoc]

if i have to choose, i'd go with the rocks over the sand. no evidence to back up which benefits more just an opinion.

Simon,

Thank you very much for the information. I don't think my wife can tolerate another big tub to hold 1,000 Lbs. live rock in addition to my existing 280G sump.

Are you telling me the benefit of DSB in 280G sump will overweigh the benefit of 1,000 Lbs live rocks? Please clarify and confirm again before I put my 1,000 Lbs. live rocks on sale.

Just for information, I already have at least 500 Lbs. live rocks in my bare bottom 350G display tanks.


James

 

[Simon Garratt]

Simon,

Thank you very much for the information. I don't think my wife can tolerate another big tub to hold 1,000 Lbs. live rock in addition to my existing 280G sump.

Are you telling me the benefit of DSB in 280G sump will overweigh the benefit of 1,000 Lbs live rocks? Please clarify and confirm again before I put my 1,000 Lbs. live rocks on sale.

Just for information, I already have at least 500 Lbs. live rocks in my bare bottom 350G display tanks.


James

Difficult to predict to be honest James.

In many cases i have seen using LR in sumps, there seems to be a common downturn in efficiency over time as the rock clogs with detritus so you get diminishing returns.

Live Sand beds on the other hand 'much the same as lagoonal substrates' are supremely adapted to take in such material, break it down and turn whats left (non biologically active sediment) into more usable habitat...It just becomes part of the makeup of the environment. obviously some long term reduction in efficiency is likely without intervention (bio diversity and competition) , but the process is imo much much slower.

The other offshoot is the sheer amount of life thats generated from the substrate layers compared to a pile of live rock.

The whole idea of a live bed is to utilise and convert more waste back into bio mass, not just break it down. This in effects creats a cycle within the closed system making better use of what food you put in, whats generated as waste from the main system, putting it back into the loop as a natural food source for your corals.

The proportion is directly linked to how well the bed is run, but in my experience, the overal benefits are greater than an equivalant volume of live rock just sitting there collecting detritus.

Regards

Simon.

 

[tomtoothdoc]

The proportion is directly linked to how well the bed is run, but in my experience, the overal benefits are greater than an equivalant volume of live rock just sitting there collecting detritus.

Regards

Simon.

oh no....i got 400lbs. of detritus.....lol

 

[Simon Garratt]

oh no....i got 400lbs. of detritus.....lol

:lol:

All depends on where your priorities lie imo, for alot of people nitrate reduction is the main interest or only concern. whilst for others, its creating a richer bio diverse environment that try's to mimic and bring together differing areas of the reef and thier individual traits.

i'm a very patient person, so Im happy to live with the limiting factors that require patience on the part of the keeper to build up a system over time without overtaxing a maturing substrate, unlike LR based systems that allow a more instant approach.. probably why i never realy give No3 a second thought as it stays permanantly below 0.1ppm and has done on my last few systems despite being a very heavy feeder. but to get that kind of result, takes time and disciplin imo.

both methods work, they just attack the issue from differing angles.

I dont think anyone can say that either method is better in all cases...Thats down to the individual, thier system, and the mechanics of how the system runs.

As allways, a good keeper can make the best of a bad method whilst a poor keeper can screw up the best...

regards

Simon.

 

[greggnyce]

Shallow sand bed here. I have had dsb and bb systems. I liked the ease of the BB with regardes to cleaning, but I did not like the limitation in livestock. I missed the look of the sand over time also.

 

[MatthewScars]

i have a shallow sand bed with a remote deep sand bed.

House

+1

 

[vinnie]

How big does a remote DSB need to be (dimensions of box or boxes and weight of sand) for say a 225 gallon display (445 gallon total system)? Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[tomtoothdoc]

How big does a remote DSB need to be (dimensions of box or boxes and weight of sand) for say a 225 gallon display (445 gallon total system)? Thanks in advance for the help.

as big as two of your sweater boxes that you're using....lol. you don't have enough sand.

 

[Acezwild]

Im bare Bottom with Polyethylene board So my bottom is white instead of glass look.

 

[Paul B]

I use a reverse UG filter

 

[dickenscd]

I use a reverse UG filter

What is UG filter?

James

 

[tomtoothdoc]

UG = under gravel. paul is old school....:flower:

 

[dickenscd]

I have almost decided to remove most of the live rocks in my remote sumps and replace it with 6" deep sand bed. Meanwhile, I will have 1" sand in my display tanks.

What kind of sand should I use for DSB and display tanks?

For easy reference, here is a link to one of the major supplier Caribsea, but I am opening for any other brands.

http://www.caribsea.com/pages/products/dry_aragonite.html

With 280G sump for home tanks and 180G for office tanks, I need more than 500 pound of sands. Where is the best place to buy sand?


James

 

[tomtoothdoc]

I have almost decided to remove most of the live rocks in my remote sumps and replace it with 6" deep sand bed. Meanwhile, I will have 1" sand in my display tanks.

What kind of sand should I use for DSB and display tanks?

For easy reference, here is a link to one of the major supplier Caribsea, but I am opening for any other brands.

http://www.caribsea.com/pages/products/dry_aragonite.html

With 280G sump for home tanks and 180G for office tanks, I need more than 500 pound of sands. Where is the best place to buy sand?


James

use sand bed calculator to give you an idea how much you need.....factoring in the pound/square foot variable.
http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/SandBed.php
display- any size you like, a little bigger grain size doesn't sand storm as much but no crushed coral...trap detritus. oolite...sugar size for the dsb. 500 lbs. gonna cost you a bundle. figured @ ~ $1/lbs plus shipping. try to find local vendor who won't charge additional shipping. otherwise dr.foster doesn't charge "heavy weight/freight shipping" when i bought mine.

 

[Paul B]

UG = under gravel. paul is old school....

Exactly:tongue1:

 

[Simon Garratt]

Nothing wrong with old school imo.....just becouse something is newer doesnt always mean its better..

Its all about how well you understand the system you are running, rather than comparing it to others that are under different circumstances.


I'll hazard a guess that Paul knows more about UGF's than the rest of us put together. and knows how to get the best possible results from that method.

Regards

Simon.

 

[dickenscd]

use sand bed calculator to give you an idea how much you need.....factoring in the pound/square foot variable.
http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/SandBed.php
display- any size you like, a little bigger grain size doesn't sand storm as much but no crushed coral...trap detritus. oolite...sugar size for the dsb. 500 lbs. gonna cost you a bundle. figured @ ~ $1/lbs plus shipping. try to find local vendor who won't charge additional shipping. otherwise dr.foster doesn't charge "heavy weight/freight shipping" when i bought mine.

Your link for sand bed calculator is very helpful.

Where can I find oolite...suger size for 700 Lbs.at good price? Any link?

What is the difference between oolite and aragonite?

Thanks.


James