A Do and Don't List on Local Collecting

[Paul B]

Georgel, sorry but I have to disagree with just about everything in your post.
We as hobbiests would not really be considered conservationists. Weather we remove fish from the tropics or wait until they hitch a ride here on the Gulf Stream or collect local specimins, we are still removing amimals from the sea. No matter how long it lives in our tanks, we are still removing a potential breeding fish and it will never again spawn to replenish it's stocks in the sea.
For every fish you buy, dozens die in traps and in transit and many more die in wholesalers and retailer's tanks.
As a matter of fact, If you collect a fish yourself, you will be killing a lot less fish than if you bought it.
If you have been to some of the places where they collect these fish you will see that fish are practically free. You can have them for a few cents. It is the shipping, packaging and the middleman that costs. The last time I was in St. Lucia they were selling lookdowns full grown for 50 cents a pound. Thats about 10 cents a fish.
They use them for food.
Concerning how much it costs us to house them, that is up to the person himself. I have a boat which costs me many times more in one year than this hobby cost me in 30 years.
Also I eat fish every day. If I eat them or keep them, it is the same to the fish. They are still being removed from the sea.
I am sure the tropicals are used as food for native species.
Let them eat cake. :bablefish

 

[Domboski]

Guys, I am going to throw the flipside out here. Why collect to begin with? Arent we as MR members proud in the fact that we are into low impact reefing, conservation, saving the enviroment blah blah blah etc etc. I got branded a planet killer last week on MR because at the moment dont beleive in E85 ethanol, yet I beleive in hybrids. If that is the case then why are we even diving into our local waters and possibly disturbing the balance in those waters in either a minimal or larger scale. Its bad enough we have synthetic fertilizers, pesticides, car care products and other industrious waste running off into local waters, why impact the local scene any further. People have mentioned tropical strays, did it ever occur to anyone that those tropical strays may be a food source for certain local species. Also, money wise wouldnt you in theory be spending more money to house local collections. I mean you have to buy a chiller to maintain temp and those arent cheap and neither is the power to run them especially when 'con'ed is now charging 21cents on the kilowatt. Just a thought to play with.

This has been considered by many. The only logical way to deal with this issue is not to keep fish in an aquarium at all.

My feeling is anyone who keeps a fish in a tank is no better than anyone else regardless of what fish you keep and in what size tank and shouldn't be commenting otherwise unless educational. This site has been developed to create a fun and educational place for people with common interests to share and learn from each other, not to flame or criticize. If there is any factor of the hobby that makes it less enjoyable (conservation, costs, criticism, etc) than the point has been lost. We are all here to help each other out and enjoy the hobby.

jhale has the right idea. He is concerned about conservation and also enjoys the hobby. He will find a compromise that he can live with. Everyone should do the same as it suits them.

I'm sorry to hear you took some heat George. It is sad to me that in an open forum that you cannot have an opinion without taking heat. Manhattan Reefs is one of the best places on the Internet to share thoughts without being criticized. It's ok to have an opinion and a discussion but when it starts to become one person forcing their beliefs on another it changes the whole dynamic.

Good points George. I collect locally (tropical strays and local species) and I have considered everything you mentioned above. I personally feel like collecting fish myself is a much better way to ensure the health of a fish at minimal impact to the environment.

I think the local collecting has bridged the gap between what people generally don't think about when purchasing a fish at an LFS and the impact we actually have on foreign reefs. It seems that some people don't like it when these issues can happen in our own backyard. Hopefully the good that comes out of this will help energize the efforts to save the worlds tropical reefs.

Sorry for the long winded response. This topic has monopolized my thoughts lately :irked:

 

[jhale]

Georgel, sorry but I have to disagree with just about everything in your post.
We as hobbiests would not really be considered conservationists. Weather we remove fish from the tropics or wait until they hitch a ride here on the Gulf Stream or collect local specimins, we are still removing amimals from the sea. No matter how long it lives in our tanks, we are still removing a potential breeding fish and it will never again spawn to replenish it's stocks in the sea.
For every fish you buy, dozens die in traps and in transit and many more die in wholesalers and retailer's tanks.
As a matter of fact, If you collect a fish yourself, you will be killing a lot less fish than if you bought it.
If you have been to some of the places where they collect these fish you will see that fish are practically free. You can have them for a few cents. It is the shipping, packaging and the middleman that costs. The last time I was in St. Lucia they were selling lookdowns full grown for 50 cents a pound. Thats about 10 cents a fish.
They use them for food.
Concerning how much it costs us to house them, that is up to the person himself. I have a boat which costs me many times more in one year than this hobby cost me in 30 years.
Also I eat fish every day. If I eat them or keep them, it is the same to the fish. They are still being removed from the sea.
I am sure the tropicals are used as food for native species.
Let them eat cake. :bablefish

That's on point, and sums up the case for collecting stray tropicals very well.

When I was in the caymans we were served a fish salad made from reef fish, LFS retail value was probably $1500 a pound for that salad.

 

[georgelc86]

Hey guys,

Hale, I hope you didnt take my post as throwing stones because I am not. I am actually trying to avoid that. I have enough scares from sword fights on MR, I dont need any more you know.

Paul - Your absoluty right and spot on with your post. Please note that I build my own rock and try exteremly hard to stock only tank bred spieces and all my corals have come from members. So I do agree with you.

Chief - I will hug you right back when I get a copy of Red Alert 3. We can do a group hug.

Dom - I thought you would be my flamer regarding my post. Thats so cool that you werent.

Just to let you guys know, I am not throwing stones to harm people nor am I saying whether local collection is right or wrong. Personally I would local collect but please be certain that the post was made with my personal beliefs aside. I am just looking to create ripples on the water. I wanted to open up the table a little bit more with the devils advocate side of stuff you know. Believe me I make the sacrifieces also. My elec bill was 385 this month. Time to start invest in LEDS. And guys I agree, the best tank is none. Carry

 

[Paul B]

My elec bill was 385 this month. Time to start invest in LEDS.

I ordered Solar Electric panels for my home and I should receive them in about a week. I will install them in a couple of weeks. $385.00 for electric is about right.

By the way, my computer screen is tempered just for the stones people throw at me.

 

[jhale]

Hey guys,

Hale, I hope you didnt take my post as throwing stones because I am not. I am actually trying to avoid that. I have enough scares from sword fights on MR, I dont need any more you know.

no I meant no one should be throwing stones at you...it's all good

 

[georgelc86]

Nice one Paul, I want to get the LEDS but I personally havnt seen much in the way of reseach and data concerning whether or not they are a better or comparable option.

Thanks Hale, too many swordfights occur you know.

Chief is going to be pissed at me but what if the local collectors where to start a thread about what is acceptable to collect and maybe provide pics and some information. If you cant beat them then at least educate them. This set of guidelines is great but a local species one together with this one would be a great combo.

Sorry Chief, we are still setting up team MR C&C right?

 

[georgelc86]

Paul you think you can pass on the info about the solar panels to us. I am been sorta researching the possiblity but didnt know how to go about it. Interested to see what your investing in.

 

[Domboski]

Dom - I thought you would be my flamer regarding my post. Thats so cool that you werent.

I wouldn't do that

 

[georgelc86]

Thanks Dom.

 

[Paul B]

Georgelc. I will be installing the panels myself (I was an electrician for 40 years)
The panels and all associated hardware are costing me about $16,000.00.
The power company is giving me back $9,000.00 as a rebate and the state and federal government is giving me back in taxes almost $5,000.00.
The entire thing will cost me about $2,500.00.
Being a union electrician we are getting a deal and I went to a class to learn how to install them. You may see me on the news installing mine.
I will be selling these systems after mine is up and running. I would imagine they will cost about $20,000.00 but with the rebates and taxes it should cost the homeowner about $6,000.00.
It will generate for my house at the present rates $611.00 a year in electricity.
Sorry to change the jist of this thread but he asked.
To keep it on topic, the power will be used to juice up my MH lights.

 

[georgelc86]

Thats cool, is that rebate from the powco as part of being tied into the grid. Also I assume this is for the whole house and not solely the halides.

I noticed a typo that I would like to correct. I personally am not a fan of local collecting, I am more of a catch and release guy, but I do understand the reasons why some people do it.

 

[KathyC]

I received my copy of Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine in today's mail, and coincidentally there is an article in there by Bob Fenner (author of The Conscientious Marine Aquarist) titled Bad Choices:Saltwater Animals Commonly Offered in the Trade.

What was interesting (and pertains to this thread especially) was due to the space he had available to write about this topic, he chose the worst of the worst to pinpoint..and a number of them are critters that people have been finding here locally. Among those he spoke about..
Coldwater snails
Coldwater algae
Butterflyfish (you'd have to read the article to learn all of the types...there are only 3 he suggests keeping)
Wild collected Seahorses (with a note about them being "notorious for bringing in parasitic disease, infecting your other fish")

Above all, he suggests researching FIRST "to break this cycle of pointless mortality".
Smart man!

 

[georgelc86]

I like his articles

 

[ellebelle]

What was interesting (and pertains to this thread especially) was due to the space he had available to write about this topic, he chose the worst of the worst to pinpoint..and a number of them are critters that people have been finding here locally. Among those he spoke about..
Coldwater snails
Coldwater algae
Butterflyfish (you'd have to read the article to learn all of the types...there are only 3 he suggests keeping)
Wild collected Seahorses (with a note about them being "notorious for bringing in parasitic disease, infecting your other fish")

Above all, he suggests researching FIRST "to break this cycle of pointless mortality".
Smart man!

I think that the key word there is RESEARCH. I don't think anyone is suggesting adding cold water animals to a warm water tank. Locally collected species that are indigenous to the waters off the coast of New York should certainly kept at 70 degrees and at a lower salinity matching the conditions of the Long Island Sound/Atlantic Ocean. In fact, Bob Fenner specifically says in that article (about the algae and snails): "Unless you have a refrigerated setup, go with tropical species." He isn't saying you CAN'T have them, just that you have to have an appropriate set up for them.

Tropical strays are a different story. As far as butterfly fish go, the most common one found as a tropical stray is Chaetodon ocellatus which is not on Fenner's list. The other butterflies that occasionally end up in local waters are Chaetedon capistratus and Chaetodon sedentarius, which are also not on Fenner's list of the worst of the worst. While the species might be challenging to keep, they are not obligate coralivores.

As far as wild-caught sea horses go, I wouldn't put anything I pulled out of the long island sound directly into my tank without a proper quarantine period. That goes for sea-horses, cold water northern species or tropical strays. Quite a few of the fish that I have seen when out collecting have obvious signs of parasites and other ill health. Quarantine is a must, more so than with those from the LFS.

I would also like to point out that not everyone who goes collecting brings home things. I've been out three times thus far and the only thing I've kept is one small spiny box puffer which is currently in quarantine and waiting for my 75g tank upgrade.

 

[KathyC]

I think that the key word there is RESEARCH.

That was my point.

 

[georgelc86]

Just wanted to share a bit o' info.

 

[ellebelle]

We have caught baby flukes and flounders and little blackfish, but we always throw them back.

 

[Paul B]

We have caught baby flukes and flounders and little blackfish, but we always throw them back.
__________________

Thats correct except for the ones I eat on the spot like M&Ms

The butterflies we collected are eating baby brine. The crabs are eating pellets and the blowfish are just looking at me funny. They are all in my local tank.

 

[georgelc86]

Paul are the rocks from local waters too.