New Turf Results

[ZooKeeper1]

Also, an algae screen (without skimmer) allows me to have filter feeders (gorgs, sponges, dendro's, flower pots, cauliflowers) which stay open and feeding 24/7, and also provides swarms of pods for the corals to eat (and the small damsels too).

I didn't notice any of those in your tank pic.

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Also, an algae screen (without skimmer) allows me to have filter feeders (gorgs, sponges, dendro's, flower pots, cauliflowers) which stay open and feeding 24/7, and also provides swarms of pods for the corals to eat (and the small damsels too).

I didn't notice any of those in your tank pic.

lol BURN! Of course you didnt...hes been pulling all of this out of his ass. If he were forced to provide testing evidence of ANY of this hed be screwed.

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Here are some interesting technical points taken out of the current issues of Advanced Aquarist:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2


"Greater than 97% of the organic matter in the oceans is in the form of DOC"

"The majority of the DOC in the oceans is consumed over a time span on the order of hours-to-weeks."

"The generally accepted value of deep ocean TOC (DOC in this instance) ranges from 0.45 - 0.60 ppm, a number that appears to be insensitive to collection location. On reefs, however, the DOC (and TOC) value is considerably higher. Even with this point noted, the values of DOC on reefs from the South Pacific to Japan to the Caribbean to the Red Sea are remarkably consistent in their range: 0.7 - 1.6 ppm"

"Bacteria are a critical component in the food web of the reef, as they occupy the role of 'middle man' in the transfer of energy from the source (sunlight) to the consumers on the reef"

"sponges are some of the most prolific repositories of marine bacteria. In fact, some sponges have been studied as effective bioremediation agents in marine aquaculture as a consequence of their exceptional ability to absorb TOC"

"Where does the DOC go ... studies suggest that it is rapidly consumed by bacteria that live in and on the coral itself and not by bacteria present in the water column. Shutting down these endogenous bacteria by antibiotic treatment abolished DOC uptake."

"In total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the [skimmer] is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so ... Clearly the skimmer is doing something, given the copious residue accumulated in the collection cup at the end of the week. Perhaps, however, the residue removed by the skimmer is only a rather small, even inconsequential, portion of the entire TOC load that develops in the aquarium water over the course of a week."

There you said it...quote skimmer is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC....thats your fancy way of saying you dont need a skimmer....but thats bullshit because it has nothing to do with Turf!!!!!! That article if anything slappes you in the face too because its bacteria cleaning up the water...NOT TURF. If anything you just proved that turf scrubbers are as useless as protein skimmers!!! lol! If your going to make an Ass umption like that then do us all a favor. Set up a two reef tanks...with your money and fully stock it. Give one a skimmer and one a turf scrubber. WHats that you say...you wont, why maybe its becasue you know it might not work and you would lose hundreds of dollars in livestock! Noone else on here will do it becauase they dont want to lose their money either! If anything according to this article you should be promoting...bacteria...buckets or something.

 

[ZooKeeper1]

Not only can DOM be taken up directly to provide carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus, but it can be broken down by organisms and released as inorganic nutrients, such as orthophosphate, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate: 16

(CH2O)106(NH3)16(H3PO4) + 138 O2 à 106 CO2 + 122 H2O + 19 H+ + PO4--- + 16 NO3-

organic + oxygen à carbon dioxide + water + hydrogen ion + phosphate + nitrate

These inorganic nutrients can then drive the growth of undesirable aquarium algae aquaria, and can cause other problems (such as phosphate inhibiting calcification by corals). Consequently, DOM (and also POM) can act both directly as a nutrient source, and also as a source of inorganic nutrients.

Reminder Of The Day:

What Scrubbers Consume: Algae scrubbers consume INORGANIC nitrate and phosphate. These things are what your test kits read, and what the nuisance algae on your rocks and glass require to live. What scrubbers don't consume is ORGANIC nitrate and phosphate. Organic nitrate and phosphate have another name: Food. Any and every piece of food you put into your tank has nitrate and phosphate in them, but they are organic. Scrubbers leave them in the water for the corals to eat. Skimmers do the opposite: Skimmers remove the organic nitrate and phosphate (food), and leave in the inorganic nitrate and phosphate; these inorganics are then used by the nuisance algae on your rocks and glass to grow.

Things are not so black and white SM !!

Keep looking for something to twist in your favor. LOL

 

[clekchau1]

Here are some interesting technical points taken out of the current issues of Advanced Aquarist:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2


"Greater than 97% of the organic matter in the oceans is in the form of DOC"

"The majority of the DOC in the oceans is consumed over a time span on the order of hours-to-weeks."

"The generally accepted value of deep ocean TOC (DOC in this instance) ranges from 0.45 - 0.60 ppm, a number that appears to be insensitive to collection location. On reefs, however, the DOC (and TOC) value is considerably higher. Even with this point noted, the values of DOC on reefs from the South Pacific to Japan to the Caribbean to the Red Sea are remarkably consistent in their range: 0.7 - 1.6 ppm"

"Bacteria are a critical component in the food web of the reef, as they occupy the role of 'middle man' in the transfer of energy from the source (sunlight) to the consumers on the reef"

"sponges are some of the most prolific repositories of marine bacteria. In fact, some sponges have been studied as effective bioremediation agents in marine aquaculture as a consequence of their exceptional ability to absorb TOC"

"Where does the DOC go ... studies suggest that it is rapidly consumed by bacteria that live in and on the coral itself and not by bacteria present in the water column. Shutting down these endogenous bacteria by antibiotic treatment abolished DOC uptake."

"In total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the [skimmer] is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so ... Clearly the skimmer is doing something, given the copious residue accumulated in the collection cup at the end of the week. Perhaps, however, the residue removed by the skimmer is only a rather small, even inconsequential, portion of the entire TOC load that develops in the aquarium water over the course of a week."

There you said it...quote skimmer is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC....thats your fancy way of saying you dont need a skimmer....but thats **** because it has nothing to do with Turf!!!!!! That article if anything slappes you in the face too because its bacteria cleaning up the water...NOT TURF. If anything you just proved that turf scrubbers are as useless as protein skimmers!!! lol! If your going to make an Ass umption like that then do us all a favor. Set up a two reef tanks...with your money and fully stock it. Give one a skimmer and one a turf scrubber. WHats that you say...you wont, why maybe its becasue you know it might not work and you would lose hundreds of dollars in livestock! Noone else on here will do it becauase they dont want to lose their money either! If anything according to this article you should be promoting...bacteria...buckets or something.

talk about needing to tone it down...

did you bother looking at the example of the reef run exclusively on an ats and carbon with excellent fish/coral growth for five years? probably not

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Do you get some thrill out of being SMs only defender. No matter what bull he posts you still back him up. I saw that tank yes. But did it also have a DSB? How often was the water changed? Was it overfed? Was it under stocked? Theres sooooo many variables at play here that one cannot Boldly state that a certain piece of equipment is useless. :roll: Bu then again IVe said this like ten times now and SM hasnt replied but you have....interesting. :wink:

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Guys guys Ive got it. Take all the equipment off your tanks guys. I have just discovered something totally revelutionary. If you plumb your tank to a separate tank and grow caulerpa in it...it removes nitrates and phosphates!!! Arent I smart! Throw away the skimmers cause I just solved all of our problems. What should I call it....its like a refuge....for plants....Ah hah! A Refugeum :idea:

 

[ZooKeeper1]

Or you could just plumb in fresh seawater for a daily water change.

http://algalturfscrubber.com/index.htm

Nice tank. It's got a refugium with 6 400 watt halides and an ATS. Two liters of sea water replacement a day, and it looks like that.

ANY MORE QUESTIONS ??

 

[Anonymous]

Here are some interesting technical points taken out of the current issues of Advanced Aquarist:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2


"Greater than 97% of the organic matter in the oceans is in the form of DOC"

"The majority of the DOC in the oceans is consumed over a time span on the order of hours-to-weeks."

"The generally accepted value of deep ocean TOC (DOC in this instance) ranges from 0.45 - 0.60 ppm, a number that appears to be insensitive to collection location. On reefs, however, the DOC (and TOC) value is considerably higher. Even with this point noted, the values of DOC on reefs from the South Pacific to Japan to the Caribbean to the Red Sea are remarkably consistent in their range: 0.7 - 1.6 ppm"

"Bacteria are a critical component in the food web of the reef, as they occupy the role of 'middle man' in the transfer of energy from the source (sunlight) to the consumers on the reef"

"sponges are some of the most prolific repositories of marine bacteria. In fact, some sponges have been studied as effective bioremediation agents in marine aquaculture as a consequence of their exceptional ability to absorb TOC"

"Where does the DOC go ... studies suggest that it is rapidly consumed by bacteria that live in and on the coral itself and not by bacteria present in the water column. Shutting down these endogenous bacteria by antibiotic treatment abolished DOC uptake."

"In total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the [skimmer] is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so ... Clearly the skimmer is doing something, given the copious residue accumulated in the collection cup at the end of the week. Perhaps, however, the residue removed by the skimmer is only a rather small, even inconsequential, portion of the entire TOC load that develops in the aquarium water over the course of a week."

There you said it...quote skimmer is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC....thats your fancy way of saying you dont need a skimmer....but thats **** because it has nothing to do with Turf!!!!!! That article if anything slappes you in the face too because its bacteria cleaning up the water...NOT TURF. If anything you just proved that turf scrubbers are as useless as protein skimmers!!! lol! If your going to make an Ass umption like that then do us all a favor. Set up a two reef tanks...with your money and fully stock it. Give one a skimmer and one a turf scrubber. WHats that you say...you wont, why maybe its becasue you know it might not work and you would lose hundreds of dollars in livestock! Noone else on here will do it becauase they dont want to lose their money either! If anything according to this article you should be promoting...bacteria...buckets or something.

talk about needing to tone it down...

did you bother looking at the example of the reef run exclusively on an ats and carbon with excellent fish/coral growth for five years? probably not

i'm genuinely curious as to why you seem to want to defend someone who makes recommendations on subjects they keep proving they have a complete and total lack of understanding about

you can use an exception to prove a rule-but not to make one

 

[Anonymous]

Or you could just plumb in fresh seawater for a daily water change.

http://algalturfscrubber.com/index.htm

Nice tank. It's got a refugium with 6 400 watt halides and an ATS. Two liters of sea water replacement a day, and it looks like that.

ANY MORE QUESTIONS ??

I would say that has a bit to do with the tank's 'sucess' as well. Of course, I see nothing in SantaM.'s postings about daily water changes being intergral to 'his method'. On the contrary, he does seem to think them unnecessary. Below is a hyperlink to the picture of the tank you cited, though I can't seem to find the specific data on it on the website. Perhaps you can supply it?

Nice, but not really housing the more difficult species and most would find the macro growing in the main display to be undesireable.

Contrast that tank with this one, run with more modern techniques:

No one here (or on any of the multitude of boards spammed by this poster and his alters-reefers do tend to cross post and chat amongst themselves) is saying that there is only one way to do a reef tank, only that ATS is in no way a one size fits all model. That would be as ridiculous as my holding forth my latest nano up all of four months using nothing more than live rock, weekly water changes and a skimmer as a sucess and the ONLY way to do things. I did the ATS thang in the way back. I also did strict Berlin. Before that I had a UG filter and CC substrate and kept rock anemones and lionfish alive for years. All were 'sucessful' methods given the level on understanding at the time. But trying to reinvent the wheel in the face of our increased knowledge onhusbandry and then discounting the siginificant cons to such an approach is laughable.

Oh, and I should thank Vitz and apoligise for stealing the image of his tank for my example

 

[Anonymous]

:x
:evil:
:twisted:

:wink:

it's not really ready to even be used as an example-give it a monh or two,m'kay ?


i feel so used now!

 

[ZooKeeper1]

http://algalturfscrubber.com/parameter.htm

 

[Anonymous]

once all the 'rescue' corals (most of the lps's were damaged/hurtin' ones that boss let me take home gratis or at cost ) are fully recovered, it might be something i'd feel comfy about using as an example

 

[Anonymous]

it's not really ready to even be used as an example-give it a monh or two,m'kay ?


i feel so used now!

Consider me chastised (GRIN).

It's a loverly tank young though it is, so stop being modest. Besides, since you have taken much of the heat here due to your being a curmudgeon I thought an example of your husbandry would be an asset, since most of the ATS newcomers don't surf past this thread.

 

[Anonymous]

http://algalturfscrubber.com/parameter.htm

actually I am familiar with the configuration but I hoped you'd look at the tech specs and see the great difference. So, you don't notice anything different in the way the ATS is constructed from the watered down system you advocate? Let me give you a nudge in the right direction...the scrubber is horizontal, and used waves as opposed to vertical and one way flow. If you don't understand why this is important, it was outlined nicely in the ReefCentral thread

 

[ZooKeeper1]

LOL. I understand. Basically to reduce the photoinhibition that occured with unidirectional flow. The algae could now sway back and forth to recieve alternating light and shade.

But I'm not recommending an algae scrubber.

 

[Anonymous]

LOL. I understand. Basically to reduce the photoinhibition that occured with unidirectional flow. The algae could now sway back and forth to recieve alternating light and shade.

But I'm not recommending an algae scrubber.

My bad, thought by your post you were holding that system forth as an exemplar 8)

 

[ZooKeeper1]

LOL. That was supposed to be sarcastic. IMO that tank does not look good.

 

[clekchau1]

Do you get some thrill out of being SMs only defender. No matter what bull he posts you still back him up. I saw that tank yes. But did it also have a DSB? How often was the water changed? Was it overfed? Was it under stocked? Theres sooooo many variables at play here that one cannot Boldly state that a certain piece of equipment is useless. :roll: Bu then again IVe said this like ten times now and SM hasnt replied but you have....interesting. :wink:

probaly as much as you get a thrill out of being an annoying , and if you read the thread or the guys tank, it gives you all the information, overfed, stocked with plenty of fish, very little if any water changes, 5 years of excellent coral/fish growth. don't worry about op, what do you think about the tank i'm referring to?


and what is interesting? are you trying to imply i'm sm? i don't even have an ats or recommend it, show me where i have?

 

[clekchau1]

Here are some interesting technical points taken out of the current issues of Advanced Aquarist:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2


"Greater than 97% of the organic matter in the oceans is in the form of DOC"

"The majority of the DOC in the oceans is consumed over a time span on the order of hours-to-weeks."

"The generally accepted value of deep ocean TOC (DOC in this instance) ranges from 0.45 - 0.60 ppm, a number that appears to be insensitive to collection location. On reefs, however, the DOC (and TOC) value is considerably higher. Even with this point noted, the values of DOC on reefs from the South Pacific to Japan to the Caribbean to the Red Sea are remarkably consistent in their range: 0.7 - 1.6 ppm"

"Bacteria are a critical component in the food web of the reef, as they occupy the role of 'middle man' in the transfer of energy from the source (sunlight) to the consumers on the reef"

"sponges are some of the most prolific repositories of marine bacteria. In fact, some sponges have been studied as effective bioremediation agents in marine aquaculture as a consequence of their exceptional ability to absorb TOC"

"Where does the DOC go ... studies suggest that it is rapidly consumed by bacteria that live in and on the coral itself and not by bacteria present in the water column. Shutting down these endogenous bacteria by antibiotic treatment abolished DOC uptake."

"In total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the [skimmer] is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so ... Clearly the skimmer is doing something, given the copious residue accumulated in the collection cup at the end of the week. Perhaps, however, the residue removed by the skimmer is only a rather small, even inconsequential, portion of the entire TOC load that develops in the aquarium water over the course of a week."

There you said it...quote skimmer is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC....thats your fancy way of saying you dont need a skimmer....but thats **** because it has nothing to do with Turf!!!!!! That article if anything slappes you in the face too because its bacteria cleaning up the water...NOT TURF. If anything you just proved that turf scrubbers are as useless as protein skimmers!!! lol! If your going to make an Ass umption like that then do us all a favor. Set up a two reef tanks...with your money and fully stock it. Give one a skimmer and one a turf scrubber. WHats that you say...you wont, why maybe its becasue you know it might not work and you would lose hundreds of dollars in livestock! Noone else on here will do it becauase they dont want to lose their money either! If anything according to this article you should be promoting...bacteria...buckets or something.

talk about needing to tone it down...

did you bother looking at the example of the reef run exclusively on an ats and carbon with excellent fish/coral growth for five years? probably not

i'm genuinely curious as to why you seem to want to defend someone who makes recommendations on subjects they keep proving they have a complete and total lack of understanding about

you can use an exception to prove a rule-but not to make one

using your same logic, its an internet forum to exhange and present ideas, he is merely presenting what he is attempting to create a homemade ats, he might not know the ins and outs but clearly it can work, what's the harm? you posted your facts, he posted his... well opinion, let the readers decide for themselves if they want to try or not, its already been proven it can work, you even said it yourself. can you do the same with a skimmer/refugium/gfo/dsb/carbon dosing setup? sure