New Turf Results

[blackcloudmedia]

Lets put it this way. A guy who just finished his FIRST engineering class walks into Ford's Engineering department and screems out "Forget everything you know!!! I have something better!! Instead of using machines to build our cars we should use mexicans!!!"
Now this certainly isnt a new idea, it would infact be reinvinting the wheel. And he hasnt done this to just Fords experience engineers....hes done it to Chevy, Toyota, Nissan, (refering to other boards hes spammed).

Now theres certainly nothing with sharing ideas with fellow reefers thats the only reason I log onto this thing is to learn new things. But the manner in which you present new ideas is crucial. I for one have a kiddie pool on my porch filled with fish, live rock, and aiptasia (says under breath lol). THis may sound weird to the untrained eye but it is in fact cleaner than my 130 Gallon system. It also only has to be topped off once a month due to the high humidity in FLorida. Im all about new ideas but like I said before the only way to properly keep nitrates and phosphates and all the generally BAD things out of our tank....is to never let them get that way. Dont overstock a new tank. THAT is my advice to newbies. i for one have just finished my third week of my new tank and I did it my own special way which I will post a thread about but basically I skipped the entire brown algae stage. I still have no fish in the tank and guess what.....no nitrates, no phosphates...and every inch of rock is covered in pods (Im working on IDing them).

 

[eric.m.s]

You expect me to answer when you laugh after addressing the post to me and Chris 8O :roll:

I had a reply but I'm not sure posting it would change your mind. In the future if you actually want me to reply try loosing the laughing emicon when addressing me Otherwise I simply can't take you serious.

hint...think closed system compared to open ocean as in the article...HUGE....small

Gresham,

I was laughing at this thread, not at you and Chris. I apologize if it came across that way. The emoticons were in jest to underwrite the tone of this thread... nothing more. In the future, if you'd like to discuss something with me, lighten up

I understand your point re: closed system & open ocean, but feel there are other factors at play in captivity. Hopefully the future TOC articles will shed more light on this.

Regards,
Eric Michael

 

[Anonymous]

Algal turf scrubber threads have come up time and time again. This is not the first and it will not be the last.

To my knowledge, nobody has *ever* posted photos of a successful long-term, aggressive-growth, full-blown SPS reef in any of these threads. That's the pic I personally wish to see (coupled with a wordy description the equipment, maintenance, and numbers). Of course, if the design is based off of this thread, it's gotta be just a turf screen.

Even if a dream SPS example weren't available, where are all the other successful pics? I've seen a lot of talk of success but all we've seen are pics of screens...no before and after FTS's and certainly no long term results (no before numbers at all IIRC). One set of pics was posted on another board. IMHO, calling that tank a 'success' requires a lowering of the bar back to where it was in 1990.

 

[Anonymous]

You expect me to answer when you laugh after addressing the post to me and Chris 8O :roll:

I had a reply but I'm not sure posting it would change your mind. In the future if you actually want me to reply try loosing the laughing emicon when addressing me Otherwise I simply can't take you serious.

hint...think closed system compared to open ocean as in the article...HUGE....small

Gresham,

I was laughing at this thread, not at you and Chris. I apologize if it came across that way. The emoticons were in jest to underwrite the tone of this thread... nothing more. In the future, if you'd like to discuss something with me, lighten up

I understand your point re: closed system & open ocean, but feel there are other factors at play in captivity. Hopefully the future TOC articles will shed more light on this.

Regards,
Eric Michael

I was truly only bumping the paper as SM has been basically ignoring anything other then "good job buddy"

Saying TOC is taking the shotgun approach really as you can have high TOC yet not have the same TOC as would caused by the algae. We're not talking just one strain of bacteria in our tanks, but a ton of different strains that different TOC compounds and conditions can create, er allow to grow If it where just as simple as comparing TOC levels and saying they in fact did not effect corals we'd be done with this conversation years ago.

I am not saying turf doesn't work for those that assume that They have their place. I have yet to see a long term SPS tank fully thriving (non skimmed, true ATS style) with them though. The only ones I have seen last multiple years and still grow (survive, not thrive) employee major amounts of water which is not doable by the average reefers who would read such posts. They also employed air driven skimmers which precludes them from the SM style as the SM style is said to replace skimmers Furthermore I have replied to SM at one point saying I thought his take on the ATM was rather cool, but his wording of his posts and his claims where something most readers would not get over.

 

[Anonymous]

lol i can get some scientists that will prove smoking is good for you, would you believe it if i continued to post the article over and over again? :lol:

so if you and vitz and the other naysayers saw evidence, say a tank that used a ats exclusively with no other means of nutriet export, and had great coral growth, especially sps, has been set up for some time say over 2 years, would you guys kindly leave out the 'it's crap it will never work' negative comments and discontinue to grace us with your godlike reef expertise? i don't know if we are worthy honestly

Some ones jumping on the ban wagon

Please show me where I said any of those comments you suggest I have. You will be hard pressed to find any quote from me saying those things My main complaint is the snake oil marketing approach SM has taken. Second complaint is him pushing aside anyone other then "good job buddy". You will find plenty of references to those.

Your posting style is no greater then Vitz's in this respect!

 

[Anonymous]

Food for thought:

This is the biggest/oldest ATS reef I've seen in person. It also has a DSB over a foot deep in sections.

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW, Mike Paletta's book "Ultimate Reef Aquariums" has a few tanks that are run (apparently) with ATS-only filtration that are quite nice, with growing Acropora, etc. Of course, these are the tanks of exceptional advanced hobbyists who have "learned the ropes" and know the limitations of such a system.

As for the reactions here, I think if someone came and posted a similar thread entitled "Skimmer design eliminates the need for ATS filtration", and then posted photos of a rather rinky-dink skimmer, we would be seeing the same type of responses. It would not change the fact that certain people will have success with either method, and certain people will have dismal failure with either method. There is no piece of equipment that replaces good husbandry!

 

[Anonymous]

Reminder Of The Day:

Yellowing of the water: This is due to cleaning or scraping the screen while the screen is still in the tank water system (i.e., "in-system"). When you break algae strands, they release their chlorophyll related chemical contents, which drain downwards. If your screen is still in-system when you clean it, it drains into your tank system water, causing yellowing. Another cause of yellowing is not cleaning your screen at all. Solution: Clean your screen at least once a week, and do it by taking it to the sink and running tap water over while you clean it.

Seems to me the algae would still leach all kinds of stuff from ruptured cells even after you rinsed it and put it back in the tank. How do you know this is not occurring?

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Psh matt....you know hes not going to answer you. :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Reminder Of The Day:

Yellowing of the water: This is due to cleaning or scraping the screen while the screen is still in the tank water system (i.e., "in-system"). When you break algae strands, they release their chlorophyll related chemical contents, which drain downwards. If your screen is still in-system when you clean it, it drains into your tank system water, causing yellowing. Another cause of yellowing is not cleaning your screen at all. Solution: Clean your screen at least once a week, and do it by taking it to the sink and running tap water over while you clean it.

Seems to me the algae would still leach all kinds of stuff from ruptured cells even after you rinsed it and put it back in the tank. How do you know this is not occurring?

I would think it would leach stuff even withou being ruptured.

<anecdotal>
I was having a lot of RTN in my tank and decide to remove by scrubbing and water change a 8-10 inch turf patch. I scrubbed it with a stainless brush. The RTN stopped after that.
</anecdotal>

 

[Anonymous]

*snip*

lol i can get some scientists that will prove smoking is good for you, would you believe it if i continued to post the article over and over again? :lol:

so if you and vitz and the other naysayers saw evidence, say a tank that used a ats exclusively with no other means of nutriet export, and had great coral growth, especially sps, has been set up for some time say over 2 years, would you guys kindly leave out the 'it's crap it will never work' negative comments and discontinue to grace us with your godlike reef expertise? i don't know if we are worthy honestly

at least show enough respect to actually read what you're criticizing, regardless of who's writ you're reading or what you think of them

NO ONE ever said turf scrubbers/algal scrubbers don't work, or will never work

the 'godlike reef expertise' is your invention here-i see no one being condescending to ANY legtimate claim or discussion on any of the santa threads on any bb i've participated in since the spam started

if you have issues with negative comments you think are unfounded, and think (self-imposed)censoring them is the way to deal with such aspects of a discussion, you shouldn't even be posting on an internet bb

it's just as bad as announcing an INTENT to ingnore such (legitimate) posts

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW, Mike Paletta's book "Ultimate Reef Aquariums" has a few tanks that are run (apparently) with ATS-only filtration that are quite nice, with growing Acropora, etc. Of course, these are the tanks of exceptional advanced hobbyists who have "learned the ropes" and know the limitations of such a system.

As for the reactions here, I think if someone came and posted a similar thread entitled "Skimmer design eliminates the need for ATS filtration", and then posted photos of a rather rinky-dink skimmer, we would be seeing the same type of responses. It would not change the fact that certain people will have success with either method, and certain people will have dismal failure with either method. There is no piece of equipment that replaces good husbandry!

8)

 

[Anonymous]

IMHO, I would not call that a successful tank. IIRC, Fenner called it a "dismal failure". That's with the addition of GAC, NSW changes, a pro maintenance team, and the financial backing of the Smithsonian.

I would like to take another peruse through Ultimate Reef Aquariums again...good excuse to do so. Unfortunately, I don't own a copy. I glanced at Amazon. The page images include a partial summary of filtration info. 85% of the tanks in the book include a skimmer (surprisingly low!?) and 16% included a 'natural' filtration method (refugium, ATS, or other). I wish they would have clipped the next page so I could see the 16% broken down. Maybe I should stop being a cheapskate and just get a copy! I would love to see a round two of the book with the same tanks to see what the owners have changed since the original publication.

 

[Anonymous]

The original. Too bad the picture is in black and white. You can't tell that the water looks like it came out of a urinal at Fenway.

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW, Mike Paletta's book "Ultimate Reef Aquariums" has a few tanks that are run (apparently) with ATS-only filtration that are quite nice, with growing Acropora, etc. Of course, these are the tanks of exceptional advanced hobbyists who have "learned the ropes" and know the limitations of such a system.

As for the reactions here, I think if someone came and posted a similar thread entitled "Skimmer design eliminates the need for ATS filtration", and then posted photos of a rather rinky-dink skimmer, we would be seeing the same type of responses. It would not change the fact that certain people will have success with either method, and certain people will have dismal failure with either method. There is no piece of equipment that replaces good husbandry!

8)

Shnanagins! Ignore the Eco Aqualizer at your own peril!

 

[Anonymous]

Seems to me the algae would still leach all kinds of stuff from ruptured cells even after you rinsed it and put it back in the tank. How do you know this is not occurring?

It is, but it's much less, as first disovered (best as I can tell) by Eric B. Maybe even less than a regular fuge where you pull algae apart to get it out. Also, no current user of the homebuilt scrubbers on any site have reported any yellowing at all.

I would think it would leach stuff even withou being ruptured

So would chaeto etc. But they are not yellowing.

wait a sec, first you ignore links and people who would disprove your skimmer claims, and now you use them to back up your other assertions ?

the 'selective referencing' won't play here, bubbeleh

i'll bet that most of the folks who use scrubbers don't notice yellowing until it's extremely pronounced-are they doing a white blank color test (comparing a clear sample and a test sample on a white background) weekly, or just going by what they see in their tank(s)?

 

[Anonymous]

jski711 on the RS site says his scrubber fixed up his pH:

"my ph was dropping too low because i wasn't running my skimmer. the skimmer would help get rid of a lot of the co2 that was comming from the effluent of the reactor into the tank. so i turned my reactor off and i couldn't run my skimmer because of a medication i put in my tank, the skimmer would just overflow with bubbles in a matter of seconds. so i was running no skimmer and no reactor for about a month and a half. then after installing the scrubber i noticed that my ph was on the rise and has been high sometimes 8.5ish. so i figured the extra co2 from the reactor would bring the ph down and also help with micro growth. no more ph problems, im amazed at how much this scrubber has raised my ph. again awesome idea santamonica!!!"

what's the pH at nite ?

 

[Ben1]

Also, no current user of the homebuilt scrubbers on any site have reported any yellowing at all.

Are these people running any other filters like GAC?

TRA vol 3: The use of algea turf scrubbers exclusively to filter an aquarium results in a yellowing of the water by organic leachates from the algae and ruptured algal cells."

They go on about how the yellowing changes the light spectrum getting to the corals. They also discuss how ATS compete with the zooxanthellae of corals for the same inorganic nutrients and important trace elements, which can lead to a gradual decline of corals due to starvation.

To be fair not everything they say in the book about ATS is bad, they do also say

"Turf filtration can be utilized successfully for growing corals, contrary to our earlier opinion, provided certain operational conditions are met,as we shall detail shortly."

The also discuss a large tank that was run using ATS's and removed them,

"After the removal of the ATS filters, it was found that there was no significant difference in DON, nitrate, nitrite or redox levels in the tank. However, inorganic phosphate levels showed a significant decrease.......the results demonstrate that the algae and biomass play a major role in handling the inorganic nirogen load, without the need for the ATS."

Like I said they were not all negative about ATS and suggest if used correctly, in conjuction with proper husbandry techniques it can work. The point is, it probably would work if employeed with other known methods, such as skimming, GAC, W/C's, etc.....but as a stand alone filter where nothing else is done to the tanks is a bad idea. I have seen the pictures of the inland tanks that dont do W/C or anything and just run ATS and I cant say I am impressed, no offence intented.

 

[Anonymous]

Seems to me the algae would still leach all kinds of stuff from ruptured cells even after you rinsed it and put it back in the tank. How do you know this is not occurring?

It is, but it's much less, as first disovered (best as I can tell) by Eric B. Maybe even less than a regular fuge where you pull algae apart to get it out. Also, no current user of the homebuilt scrubbers on any site have reported any yellowing at all.

I would think it would leach stuff even withou being ruptured

So would chaeto etc. But they are not yellowing.

Chaeto is not turf. Interchanging the general and the specific makes meaningful discussion difficult.

 

[Anonymous]

jski711 on the RS site says his scrubber fixed up his pH:

"my ph was dropping too low because i wasn't running my skimmer. the skimmer would help get rid of a lot of the co2 that was comming from the effluent of the reactor into the tank. so i turned my reactor off and i couldn't run my skimmer because of a medication i put in my tank, the skimmer would just overflow with bubbles in a matter of seconds. so i was running no skimmer and no reactor for about a month and a half. then after installing the scrubber i noticed that my ph was on the rise and has been high sometimes 8.5ish. so i figured the extra co2 from the reactor would bring the ph down and also help with micro growth. no more ph problems, im amazed at how much this scrubber has raised my ph. again awesome idea santamonica!!!"

How much is he claiming it actually raised pH? Has he been testing at the same time of day throughout his pH issues?