New Turf Results

[clekchau1]

FWIW, Mike Paletta's book "Ultimate Reef Aquariums" has a few tanks that are run (apparently) with ATS-only filtration that are quite nice, with growing Acropora, etc. Of course, these are the tanks of exceptional advanced hobbyists who have "learned the ropes" and know the limitations of such a system.

As for the reactions here, I think if someone came and posted a similar thread entitled "Skimmer design eliminates the need for ATS filtration", and then posted photos of a rather rinky-dink skimmer, we would be seeing the same type of responses. It would not change the fact that certain people will have success with either method, and certain people will have dismal failure with either method. There is no piece of equipment that replaces good husbandry!

yes that was what i was referring to, the pet shop owner who has a 180 with nothing more than a ats and carbon, plenty of sps growth, overstocking of fish and he feeds 20 times a day and rarely makes water changes.

his success is really what sm was claiming and literally flamed by nonsayers as 'old technology not used by experiened reefers who know better'. my argument in this whole thread, who is one person to say what is right and what is wrong way to keep a reef, especially if they have not tried the technique?

 

[clekchau1]

Algal turf scrubber threads have come up time and time again. This is not the first and it will not be the last.

To my knowledge, nobody has *ever* posted photos of a successful long-term, aggressive-growth, full-blown SPS reef in any of these threads. That's the pic I personally wish to see (coupled with a wordy description the equipment, maintenance, and numbers). Of course, if the design is based off of this thread, it's gotta be just a turf screen.

Even if a dream SPS example weren't available, where are all the other successful pics? I've seen a lot of talk of success but all we've seen are pics of screens...no before and after FTS's and certainly no long term results (no before numbers at all IIRC). One set of pics was posted on another board. IMHO, calling that tank a 'success' requires a lowering of the bar back to where it was in 1990.

since you asked i had to dig out the book i saw the aquarium in, the guy is bruce davidson, he owns sandy's pet shop in louisville kentucky, the system is a 180 reef with just an ats and carbon, nothing else (yes vitz, no skimmer), when ultimate aquariums was published he had 19 fish, 19 sps, 7 soft corals, he feeds between 7 - 20 times a day and his weekly maintenance consists of scraping and rinsing the screen to the ats, no water changes, nitrates and phosphates are not detectableegligeble and his corals and fish look great.

you can see pictures in mike paletta's book ultimate aquarium on page 62 and here is his store's website, there is a small picture of the reef on the bottom left of this page: http://www.sandyspetshop.com/custom.htm . its as nice of a reef as alot of the other tank methods i have seen and

i'm sure sm's claims and actions have ruffled some feathers but i just felt his passion for this type of filter/system should be encouraged, not ridiculed. apparenltly i'm the only one who feels that way on here.

 

[Anonymous]

No doubt Bruce runs an ATS, he and Morgan are at every show together accept the last one which was odd I must say (Morgan we all missed you)

I just emailled Bruce to see if he wants to join in...

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW, Mike Paletta's book "Ultimate Reef Aquariums" has a few tanks that are run (apparently) with ATS-only filtration that are quite nice, with growing Acropora, etc. Of course, these are the tanks of exceptional advanced hobbyists who have "learned the ropes" and know the limitations of such a system.

As for the reactions here, I think if someone came and posted a similar thread entitled "Skimmer design eliminates the need for ATS filtration", and then posted photos of a rather rinky-dink skimmer, we would be seeing the same type of responses. It would not change the fact that certain people will have success with either method, and certain people will have dismal failure with either method. There is no piece of equipment that replaces good husbandry!

yes that was what i was referring to, the pet shop owner who has a 180 with nothing more than a ats and carbon, plenty of sps growth, overstocking of fish and he feeds 20 times a day and rarely makes water changes.

his success is really what sm was claiming and literally flamed by nonsayers as 'old technology not used by experiened reefers who know better'. my argument in this whole thread, who is one person to say what is right and what is wrong way to keep a reef, especially if they have not tried the technique?

Naysayers, nonsayers never say anything

Um I've used ATS's for years I worked for a company that installed 1/4 million dollar ATS style systems , but our own take on it. Vitz has used them for years as has Chris. We do have quite a bit of experience and oddly enough it doesn't mirror SM's 8O

Had he came in here with a different tone this thread would be a heck of a lot different, trust me. Same with you, two guns a blazing makes no friends

 

[clekchau1]

that would be great, i'm suprised you didn't mention him earlier when people were asking about reef tanks with long term success running an ats exclusively, maybe he could give op some pointers and clarify some misconceptions

 

[Anonymous]

Why? SM ignores 99% of what I have offered all ready Then you claim I have no experience with em You'd be blown away by the system we installed @ Seacliff Simply insane computer driven surge, with ATS but HEAVY and I mean HEAVY GAC use. Very little SPS growth but LPS, softies, sponges and feather dusters in plague proportions. Massive water changes as well. 150g twice a week on a 680g.

We didn't use screens or raceways but simply the sides of the massive 300g surge tank which was divided in half with 4" drains. We also employed some macro in the surge for feeding the tangs.

 

[clekchau1]

i'm setting up a 600 now that will have mostly softies and lps and wanted to keep alot of tangs, just researching the alternative ways to control nutriets when i stumbled on all his threads, i can see why people reacted as they did with his actions and claims but at the same time i could see his passion and wanted to see if he can sort things out on his own.

vitz is just plain annoying even flaming me yet i was the one told to tone it down lol, i undestand, i know how internet forum works with newbies

 

[clekchau1]

btw that 300 g surge tank sounds wild, do you have any pictures of it?

 

[Anonymous]

the question i would ask is this :

why install ANY device on a small system that is:

a) waste producing (an algal farm produces whole classes of waste compounds that will have an elevated production level)

b) work intensive, time consuming, messy,and an all around pita to operate properly long term

c)potentially highly affecting chemistry swings in the aquarium (i notice no one is adressing what a full algal mat can do to pH (and other things)levels at night)

d)touted as being a 'free lunch' miracle cure, complete panacea

ANY mature reef tank with healthy live rock, skimming, and proper water changes will achive everything a scrubber will, and to a better level, with more stability/reliability (what do you do if your algal mat depletes the iron and/or other macronutrients, and crashes ? what then happens to all of the NO3/PO4/C etc etc trapped in the algal mat?

any mature reef tank with healthy rock, a dsb (not necessarily 'd' for 'deep, but denitrifying) skimming, and proper water changes will achieve evrything a scrubber does and to a better level

any mature reef tank with proper water changes alone, nothing else, can maintain water quality better then a scrubber


scrubbers should really only be recommended for the type/size systems that make the scrubber actually worthwhile from a maintenance and water volume buffer perspective -on larger volume systems, they can be quite effective/helpful-and they require a whole maintenance regimen of their own


personally, after working with marine ornamentals all day long, every week, the last thing i want to do is have to work on my tank at home-i just want to crack open a beer and be able to enjoy it, with minimal effort, using the time and money i have to invest in its care at their most efficient and minimum level. i also want the system itself to be as self reliant, uncomplicated (the more things you gots, the more things you gots that can go wrong ) and as easy to care for as possible


one last point on comparing a skimmer and a scrubber:

one of the things skimmers remove is phytoplankton (especially if skimming wet)-that is in itself a form of algae scrubbing-the difference is that the algae (phyto) is completely removed from the system, so it acts as a true sink-no need to worry about breaking strands in the water and all that kakaa

 

[Anonymous]

vitz is just plain annoying even flaming me yet i was the one told to tone it down lol, i undestand, i know how internet forum works with newbies

FYI, Vitz has been asked to tone it down in many ways many times. My post to you was so you wouldn't be put in the same category as Vitz as an acerbic poster only to have many people not actually read your posts. Well, that and you were doing what you were admonishing others for doing!
RDO doesn't heavely police its posters, so most of the requests from staff are just requests. Vitz often chooses to ignore the advice, so we let him go on to a point, then remind him again. It is important to note that I think Vitz has a lot of good information in him, I just wish he would get it out in different ways. However, I different people are different, and thats what makes the world go around, so I just skip or breeze through posts that I find hard to read and try to glean any info from them that I can.
I think that since you changed your posting style, you have already gotten much useful discussion, where as before you were getting defensive reactions.

I also don't care if you are new to this forum or not. I stopped looking at post counts long ago because they don't mean a thing about the information the poster actually has.

BTW

:welcome:

 

[Anonymous]

his success is really what sm was claiming and literally flamed by nonsayers as 'old technology not used by experiened reefers who know better'. my argument in this whole thread, who is one person to say what is right and what is wrong way to keep a reef, especially if they have not tried the technique?

Most people in this thread have tried the technique and almost all have said that ATS has its place.
I don't think much of the discussion is really is a reaction to the way SM has presented his thoughts, especially in regards to new hobbyists. Also, the way he spins stuff is like candy to a lot of RDO members.

 

[Anonymous]

You can't tell that the water looks like it came out of a urinal at Fenway.

:lol:

Also, the way he spins stuff is like candy to a lot of RDO members.

I'm still waiting for my cheese!

 

[Anonymous]

You can't tell that the water looks like it came out of a urinal at Fenway.

:lol:

Also, the way he spins stuff is like candy to a lot of RDO members.

I'm still waiting for my cheese!

Or the mother load.....

 

[Anonymous]

vitz is just plain annoying even flaming me yet i was the one told to tone it down lol, i undestand, i know how internet forum works with newbies

FYI, Vitz has been asked to tone it down in many ways many times. My post to you was so you wouldn't be put in the same category as Vitz as an acerbic poster only to have many people not actually read your posts. Well, that and you were doing what you were admonishing others for doing!
RDO doesn't heavely police its posters, so most of the requests from staff are just requests. Vitz often chooses to ignore the advice, so we let him go on to a point, then remind him again. It is important to note that I think Vitz has a lot of good information in him, I just wish he would get it out in different ways. However, I different people are different, and thats what makes the world go around, so I just skip or breeze through posts that I find hard to read and try to glean any info from them that I can.
I think that since you changed your posting style, you have already gotten much useful discussion, where as before you were getting defensive reactions.

I also don't care if you are new to this forum or not. I stopped looking at post counts long ago because they don't mean a thing about the information the poster actually has.

BTW

:welcome:

don't poke the curmudgeon :twisted:

 

[Anonymous]

:lol:

 

[reefseller]

Okay Gresham, I have been away from surfing the aquarium forums for a few years and I remember why I moved on. This thread is a great example of 7 pages of wasted time. I think it is great that the santa feller is using his head and working through the process and trying new things. We were all there at one time or another and some things you just gotta try for yourself. Like others suggested, everyone should get a copy of Dynamic Aquaria today. That book has so much more than everything you ever wanted to know about algae filters. It will be a great block in the foundation of your aquatic knowledge.

The aquarium of mine that is featured in Mikes book is gone. It was up for several years (lots more than 5) and up until the day I took it down I was very happy with the results of the ATS filter. Fish and corals did what they were supposed to do, grow and look pretty. The aquarium was taken down because I moved my store. The majority of the animals are still with me in my new location. Some of the fish and corals are nearly 20 years old now.

I think ATS is a great way to manage an aquarium. Do I have ATS filters now? No. There are a couple of reasons I no longer use ATS. The biggie is the availability of filter systems, sure you can make your own but I am in the business of selling, not manufacturing and if you start selling/manufacturing enough ATS filters the guy that wrote that great book (and owns the patent on algae filters) will come and get you or at least threaten you. I do think there are easier ways to manage an aquarium though. With an ATS system you definitely have to pay more attention to the filter as it is a living growing thing and has problems of it’s own. For several years I sold ATS units and found my customers had far to many problems with em and most of the problems stemmed from not doing the required maintenance. I don’t sell em now or use em but I don’t have a problem with the technique. I know for sure (experience) that you can have any style of tank you want, fish only, SPS, LPS or softies with the same results as a skimmer driven tank. We all know this, it comes down to husbandry and with that in mind I think it is wise to use a filter that requires the least amount of attention and experience to maintain, for the masses anyway.

Bruce Davidson

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for popping in Bruce Next round is on me.....just please don't make me be the singer :lol:

 

[ZooKeeper1]

A skimmer can remove waste before it has a chance to break down into N and P. Turf can't. And skimmers certainly do remove N and P as well. Whatever percentage of waste that it does remove is still waste removed from the system. Algae only adds to the waste by increasing the DOC which in turn increase the bacteria. In a tank with a skimmer, those bacteria are being removed. With turf alone, they are not.

I certainly don't think they are trying to say that you shouldn't use a skimmer, or that high DOC levels are good.

The somewhat subversive thesis that perhaps skimmers do not contribute much to TOC removal/water purification was raised in the discussion of Figs. 5 and 6; the exceedingly low TOC values in the skimmerless tank #2 provide further support for this notion. What then, distinguishes this tank from the other skimmerless tank, #3, which has exceedingly high TOC levels? Both tanks lack sandbeds and have similar fish loads and soft coral/invertebrate populations. The one identifiable difference in husbandry between them involves GAC; the low TOC tank (#2) uses GAC-based water filtration, whereas the high-TOC tank (#3) does not. Does GAC really make such a spectacular difference in TOC loads while at the same time protein skimmers scarcely have any effect at all? This question and related topics are currently under study, and results will be reported in the near future.

 

[Anonymous]

nothing like watching someone comparing apples to oranges when trying to make a point about the melon growing season :lol:

 

[iseeweed]

Can someone please put an end to this madness??