B-Ionic

[Mihai]

Mihai,

Perhaps you missed this part of Randy's first article:

This solution is not perfect. If commercial two-part additives are formulated as they claim to be with all of the remaining ions present in seawater ratios, then this recipe is not as good as those formulations. Whether the commercial additives are formulated correctly or not, I cannot say.

ESV has proved to be a reputable company and they invented the two-part ionically-balanced supplement system. Athough I haven't tested their B-Ionic product, I have no reason to doubt their claims. Knowing Bob Stark, owner of ESV, I'm sure that he wouldn't make statements that were patently false and easily verified.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. You can't argue your point by saying a reputable company is lying about their product when you have no evidence to back up your statements. That's what's truly absurd. Even Randy states that his recipe is "not as good" and that he can't comment on the formulation of commercial alternatives to his "two-part" solution. How is it that you're able to comment?

Unless you spend the time doing some additional research or actual product testing, I'd suggest stopping here before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole.

Greg

Greg, it was obvious to me from the beginning that you know that owner of ESV. Other that this posting you seemed to be very objective. However, I am affraid that your personal relationship clouded your objectivity a little bit.

Let's take the same assertion you quoted above:

This solution is not perfect. If commercial two-part additives are formulated as they claim to be with all of the remaining ions present in seawater ratios, then this recipe is not as good as those formulations. Whether the commercial additives are formulated correctly or not, I cannot say.

and disect it:

This solution is not perfect.

Of course, as I said before, no solution can be perfect unless it matches all the ions in the periodic table. While, perhaps theoretically possible, it would be probably extremely expensive. For example, I don't see B-ionic claiming to match the gold ions. How about uranium?

If commercial two-part additives are formulated as they claim to be with all of the remaining ions present in seawater ratios, then this recipe is not as good as those formulations.

You seem to miss the key words here: If and all. As pointed above, you cannot possibly match all of them. I cannot believe that you seriously believe that a family bussines can match all the ions. Hence, you can discard this sentence (as the condition in the if cannot be reasonably be satisfied).


Whether the commercial additives are formulated correctly or not, I cannot say.

This is the only thing we can agree on.

Now let me correct your interpretation of my previous post:

You can't argue your point by saying a reputable company is lying about their product when you have no evidence to back up your statements.

I think that we established that they exagerate their claims: they cannot possibly match all the ions, so it cannot be complete. I believe I never said that they lie, just that they make exagerated claims.
I can't believe that you let your friendship cloud your judgement to the point you misread what I say.

Unless you spend the time doing some additional research or actual product testing, I'd suggest stopping here before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole.

I believe that neither of us did any testing or additional research. I also don't believe I'm in any kind of hole. In any case not more than you are .

I think that the short of it is that:

We really don't know if R-ionic or B-ionic is better (where the ideal is matching all ions). However, we can be reasonably sure that none of them match all ions. Furthremore, we know that R-ionic matches 7 ions, while we have no clue how many are matched by B-ionic. So the conclusion? No conclusion other that we don't know.

I believe that the previous paragraph summarizes my position on the subject and I'm ready to hear any opinions that are not based on blind trust (friend or not). Do you have any anecdotal evidence that points to the fact that B-ionic matches more than 7 ions?

I know that I upseted you and I'm sorry for that. However, I keep answering out of respect for you. Believe me, if you were a beaslebob I would have stopped a long time ago.

Mihai

 

[GSchiemer]

Mihai,

Well, now your conclusion has changed once again to "we don't know." You were pretty adamant before that they were the same formulation. Remember? Or should I find the quote for you?

"Complete supplement" refers to all major ions, such as potassium, strontium, iodide, and magnesium, which are absent from Randy's basic two-part formula, so they are different and, assuming the manufacturer isn't being dishonest, and there is no reason to believe they are, it is a "better formulation." You can't claim otherwise unless you have specific knowledge.

My "knowing" Bob Stark has nothing to do with this. Bob is very popular in the reef aquarium hobby and "knows" many people. Those that do know of him and his company know that both are reputable. Are all these people now banned from objectively discussing his products? How are you so certain that this has "clouded my judgment." You're very quick to jump to conclusions based upon nothing but speculation. That's what got you in trouble in the first place. I have no commercial interest in ESV or any other aquarium product company, and, as a matter of fact, I use Randy's "two-part" recipe to maintain calcium and alkalinity in two of my reef aquariums.

I'm not going to continue playing your game of semantics, which you've attempted to use to weasel out of previous incorrect assumptions. It's apparent that this "debate" is going nowhere and that your just not interested in the facts, so I'm bowing out. If it makes you happy to get the last word, go for it. Your on your own from here on out.

Greg

 

[Anonymous]

Frankly, I think it is easier to not take chances, dont be so cheap, and buy the frikking b-ionic if you want to be in the hobby

 

[Anonymous]

Since each ion has a fairly unique consumption rate from aquarium to aquarium there is no ideal one-size-fits-all additive that only comes in two parts. I think B-Ionic is an excellent product but why would you even want it to have a full dose of ions that are consumed at a very slow rate?

 

[Mihai]

Frankly, I think it is easier to not take chances, dont be so cheap, and buy the frikking b-ionic if you want to be in the hobby

You missed my whole point! Is my English that bad? The point
is that at this time we don't know if B-ionic is any better than
R-ionic. At this point everybody has an opinion (or a guess, or faith) about that (and may argue for it more or less strongly). I think that only somebody with the right equipment (Randy?) may be able to shed some light in this controversy. I'm looking forward to read that article someday.

Guy, I don't think that either R-ionic, or B-ionic has full strength
of anything, but just enough ions of other things such that when
sodium and chloride concentrations increase, the rest of the ions
also increase in an equivalent proportion such that it doesn't disturb the balance. Now, exactly, which ions have to
be correctly increased to be able to call the product complete is apparently a matter of controversy.

Guy, you also raise an important point: I think that both
products assume that only calcium carbonate is depleted in the
process of calcification. I really don't know if this is true or not,
but I would guess that there are other things that get
depleted as well. Furthermore, as you pointed out, probably the
proportion of other depleted ions vary as a function of, perhaps, type
of coral, light, and other parameters that vary from aquarium to
aquarium. Thus, no formula can ever be perfect.

Mihai

 

[ReefTiger]

You don't worry about the other ions accumulating because you use the b-ionic to maintain alk and calcium. You can therefore extrapolate all your other ions being in balance when alk/calcium are balanced and you consistently use b-ionic for maintenance.

Now I know you can say what you will about the make up of h2o for h2o changes, but your salt solution should also be balanced.

In my opinion, if you change water on a regular schedule (minimum 1x/month) and exclusively use b-ionic for supplementation (as needed) your tank will be better off than 8/10 people who don't follow that regimen. I have no experience with the R-ionic, but I'm not interested in taking the time to buy the products and spend time mixing them. There are some people who enjoy that aspect of the hobby.

I think that rather than trying to claim a homemade formula is the same as the "expensive" product is misleading. Just tell everyone you enjoy saving a few dollars, and spending a little more time to mix it. Otherwise, unless you have two tanks set up and one uses R-ionic and the other B-ionic and you specifically measure chemical make-up and observe coral growth over a period of time, you cannot say they are the same.

Not trying to be argumentative, but beginners read this forum as well and it can be easy to become confused. 8)

 

[Mihai]

You don't worry about the other ions accumulating because you use the b-ionic to maintain alk and calcium. You can therefore extrapolate all your other ions being in balance when alk/calcium are balanced and you consistently use b-ionic for maintenance.

I don't see how you can extrapolate that. Actually I believe that both the alk and ca are balanced both in B-ionic and in R-ionic. Furthermore the chloride and sodium are balanced as well. Perhaps even the magnesium. Our discussion was not about those ions but rather about the others. Your extrapolation would only hold if you start with a formulation similar to saltwater (where everything is in the right proportion to begin with), but none of those products do.

I do agree with you that as long as you do water changes regularly, imbalances of any of the two products will be limited in scope.

I know that the beginners read this post. Actually, I believe that a beginner was the one that asked the initial question. And I was trying to argue that unless you know that B-ionic is better than R-ionic it may be wise to put your money into other things, that, IMO may make more of a difference (e.g., good lights, a good skimmer, a refugium, etc.). I can see why friends of the ESV owners may react negatively to this suggestion.

Mihai

 

[GSchiemer]

You don't worry about the other ions accumulating because you use the b-ionic to maintain alk and calcium. You can therefore extrapolate all your other ions being in balance when alk/calcium are balanced and you consistently use b-ionic for maintenance.

Now I know you can say what you will about the make up of h2o for h2o changes, but your salt solution should also be balanced.

In my opinion, if you change water on a regular schedule (minimum 1x/month) and exclusively use b-ionic for supplementation (as needed) your tank will be better off than 8/10 people who don't follow that regimen. I have no experience with the R-ionic, but I'm not interested in taking the time to buy the products and spend time mixing them. There are some people who enjoy that aspect of the hobby.

I think that rather than trying to claim a homemade formula is the same as the "expensive" product is misleading. Just tell everyone you enjoy saving a few dollars, and spending a little more time to mix it. Otherwise, unless you have two tanks set up and one uses R-ionic and the other B-ionic and you specifically measure chemical make-up and observe coral growth over a period of time, you cannot say they are the same.

Not trying to be argumentative, but beginners read this forum as well and it can be easy to become confused. 8)

Very well said, but you're fighting a lost case. Mihai doesn't understand the concept that the residual sodium chloride, resulting from the addition of the simple two-part formula, requires the addition of magnesium, sulfate, potassium, strontium, and perhaps bromide, boron and fluoride, in order to maintain the proper balance of the major ions in the aquarium water. The simple home-made formula does not do this; B-Ionic does. Now Mihai will continue to make the specious argument that the company may be deceiving us. He's one of those people that knows just enough about a subject to be dangerous.

Greg

 

[Anonymous]

Frankly, I think it is easier to not take chances, dont be so cheap, and buy the frikking b-ionic if you want to be in the hobby

Chreeestos, gretzk, you know chemistry makes my head hurt. Come back to the sump and let the science folks sort this out amongst themselves. :lol:

 

[Mihai]

Greg, it's plainly obvious that I don't understand even basic things about Randy's two part formula (as I always though that it also balances magnesium) and that I have hidden reasons to deceive the beginners.
Now that my plot has been foiled and I'm revealed for the fraud that I am, I'll just turn my back and run with my tail between my legs.

You are 100% right and I was totally wrong. I also promisse that this is the last post I make on this :edit: thread.

You "win"! I hope this makes your evening!
Mihai

 

[fyrefysh]

Well . . . I wouldn't say that I'm a beginner, but I'm not a chemist! Thanks for the help fellows, I went ahead and bought some more B-ionic this evening. If all goes well with the tax return, I'll buy a doser to dose it with! (those are expensive little boogers!!)

 

[Anonymous]

Frankly, I think it is easier to not take chances, dont be so cheap, and buy the frikking b-ionic if you want to be in the hobby

Chreeestos, gretzk, you know chemistry makes my head hurt. Come back to the sump and let the science folks sort this out amongst themselves. :lol:

lmao...ok...only of you promise to hold me.... :wink: 8O

 

[Anonymous]

All of you, or just part(s)?






Sure, I'll hold ya, bigguy, just don't skimp on the B-Ionic!

Anyway, as far as I can tell, there are so many variables to our tank water chemistry that no single formula/equation will work for every tank in every circumstance. But that's just my opinion, and I'm a seahorse chick so what do I know?

 

[Talonstorm]

Where do you all buy B-Ionic? Is there one online retailer that is more reasonable on cost than another? I looked at e-bay, but shipping is expensive. If I am going to pay for shipping, I would prefer to buy from a retailer where I can place an order for a bunch of items at once.

Thanks,
Tina

 

[Anonymous]

Where do you all buy B-Ionic? Is there one online retailer that is more reasonable on cost than another? I looked at e-bay, but shipping is expensive. If I am going to pay for shipping, I would prefer to buy from a retailer where I can place an order for a bunch of items at once.

Thanks,
Tina

LFS...I am one of those who prefers to give business to a local guy who is honest, and has a good business. I'd rather pay extra locally and be a good customer. In return, he loans me things if i need it, and other perks, whereas saving a few bucks online doesnt get me anywhere in the long run.

 

[Len]

I get mine at Marine Depot because they are very close to me. All the major etailers have it though for competitve prices. Oddly enough, my LFS does not stock Bionic.

 

[Talonstorm]

Oddly enough, my LFS does not stock Bionic.

Nor does mine, or I would get it there and save the shipping.

Tina

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, Im suprised no LFS near you guys stock it.

Out of the 3 local ones I know of (though I frequent the one most often) they all carry it, either as already mixed, or as a concentrate.