B-Ionic

[fyrefysh]

So, what do you all think of the two part product B-Ionic? If you do use it, what other additives do you use along with it? If you do not use it, what do you use/recommend and why?

 

[FragMaster]

I use it. I love it actualy!
I dose phyto-plex, essential elements, coral-excell, and iodine concentrate.
BUT wait a day before you dose anything else in the tank (besides phyto).
When you add part 1 make sure you pour it in a high current area ,and wait 5 minutes or so for it to mix well before you add part two or you will get white gell beads all over every thing.

 

[Len]

I use B-ionic on a regular basis and have been for 5+ years. I don't add anything else other then my kalkwasser and calcium reactor. Recently, though, I've been experiementing with Salifert's all-in-one additive which Randy wrote about years ago in www.advancedaquarist.com. So far, I like it.

 

[fungia]

i use bionic, love it! it is the only thing i add right now but if had more stony corals i would start adding kalkwasser.

 

[Anonymous]

I used it before I get a CA and a kalk reactor.

B-ionic is a great product.

Louey

 

[Mihai]

I use R-ionic, which is Randy's homemade version of B-ionic. He recently upgraded the recipe on www.reefkeeping.com (this month's article).
For my 90gal, B-ionic would be way too much to buy.

M.

 

[fyrefysh]

Y'know, I read that article, I worry about some of the impurities (my own oppinion of course) from chemicals sold at Home Depot ("Agent Orange"). Doesn't Kalk contain just as much calcium/alkaline as this home-made stuff would? Does ESV make a supplimental product to replenish magnesium?

 

[fyrefysh]

Y'know, I read that article, I worry about some of the impurities (my own oppinion of course) from chemicals sold at Home Depot ("Agent Orange"). Doesn't Kalk contain just as much calcium/alkaline as this home-made stuff would? Does ESV make a supplimental product to replenish magnesium?

 

[Mihai]

Y'know, I read that article, I worry about some of the impurities (my own oppinion of course) from chemicals sold at Home Depot ("Agent Orange").

OK, then go read the article in the advanced aquarist about the impurities. The conclusion is that the B-ionic uses the same chemical formula (including impurities).

Doesn't Kalk contain just as much calcium/alkaline as this home-made stuff would? Does ESV make a supplimental product to replenish magnesium?

Sure, you can use Kalk. Many use it, I'm just not into mixing stuff every night.

M.

 

[GSchiemer]

Y'know, I read that article, I worry about some of the impurities (my own oppinion of course) from chemicals sold at Home Depot ("Agent Orange").

OK, then go read the article in the advanced aquarist about the impurities. The conclusion is that the B-ionic uses the same chemical formula (including impurities).

B-Ionic is NOT the "same chemical formula" as Randy's "two-part" home-made supplement. Randy states that in his original article. It's similar and may be effective for its intended purpose, but it's not identical to B-Ionic and it is not completely balanced. That's one reason a "third" supplement is required. The new formula gets it closer, but it's still not an identical product.

B-Ionic is a COMPLETE two-part supplement and contains magnesium, strontium, and other elements in correct ionic proportions. Take a look at the literature on the ESV website: http://www.esvco.com/prod6.html

As far as impurities, we don't know the grade of chemicals used by ESV, but we can be reasonably assured that they're safe for use in aquariums. The quality of ice melt products sold at Home Depot and similar stores can vary greatly by brand and even batch because they weren't intended to be used as aquarium supplements. Randy makes this warning a few times in his articles. He tested only one brand at one point in time; there's no guarantee related to any other product.

Greg

 

[fyrefysh]

Well, thanks for all of the input. I just wanted to see what kind of feedback that I would get. Sorry if I upset anyone, I'm just trying to figure out which products are safe and work well. I tried the B-Ionic for a couple of years in my last tank (until the power went out and the pumps failed), and it seemed to work well; I just didn't know if there was something better out there. I suppose it all depends on what works well for whom. Would it be necessary to dose kalk with B-Ionic, is there any benifits to using them together? I suppose you'll say it depends on the calcium/alkaline properties of the water though. I've been thinking of getting a dosing pump for dosing kalk to replenish/top-off the water for my aquarium. Does anyone use this method? Also, I've read that using vinegar in your kalk mix will bring down the pH of the kalk slurry and help stabilize the pH in the aquarium, is this correct?

 

[Mihai]

You didn't upset anybody, I upsetted Greg. I'm yet to answer his post, but I want to make my homework first .

M.

 

[dadstank]

why would one use, or rather start to use this?

does it shock the tank when first introduced?

what kind of corals are kept in a tank that requires b-ionic?

or do all saltwater tanks require it?

for those "experts" or "exprienced" who know what i am currently keeping, is this something i should be using in my tank with? am i missing something by not using it?

i don't think i have any really "hard to keep" (exception to flowerpot coral, have it as a last resort :? ) livestock requiring this, so the real question is, does it just keep the water levels in balance?

as of right now i am not putting anything in the tank other than fresh made saltwater, and food.

does b-ionic just keep water parameters in check?

many questions about what to use to ensure a long lived, healthy coral reef....

 

[GSchiemer]

Two key parameters in any reef aquarium are calcium and alkalinity. Without some form of supplementation, they're both naturally depleted until you can no longer grow corals or coralline algae and the pH becomes unstable. You can maintain these parameters using a number of balanced methods or a combination of methods (they're not mutually exclusive): kalkwasser to replace evaporated water; a calcium reactor; a two-part balanced supplement. The two-part balanced supplements are the easiest to use and are economical to use in smaller reef aquariums. Kalkwasser can be tricky to dose and is limited by evaporation rates and pH, but it's inexpensive Calcium reactors require a large outlay of cash and a lot of fiddling to fine tune their performance, but can pay for themselves over time, especially in large reef aquariums. So, for someone just starting out, I'd recommend one of the two-part balanced supplements, such as B-Ionic. Then I'd graduate to kalkwasser dosing, and finally a calcium reactor, IF it's still needed. This is the quick and dirty answer. I'd suggest doing a search for Randy Holmes-Farley's articles on the topic for a complete answer and a detailed comparison of the various methodologies.

And I'm certainly not "upset" at anything said here. There are more important things to get upset over.

Greg

 

[Mihai]

Greg, I double checked Randy's article on impurities in DowFlake:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm

The first observation is that I'm indeed not sure if what he tested "ESV Calcium Chloride" is the same as ESV's Calcium supplement. If it's not I have no data to claim that R-ionc is same as B-ionic.

However, he did compare DowFlake with four products and two of them were very close to DowFlake, and the other two were worse at least for some of the ions. He didn't say that they are the same but rather that:

The DOW, ESV and Warner products seem to have one impurity profile, and the two Kent products have a different one.

If you look at the table, the similarity is shocking. This is what led him to conclude that:

In particular, the Dow Flake 77-80% Calcium Chloride does not look to be appreciably worse than those sold by some of the aquarium supply companies.

Regarding ESV's claims on the link you pointed me to - I'm sorry, but without some proof I cannot believe things put on a website by a company that wants to sell a product. I can show you all sort of similar claims about miracle mud and miracle shark fin additives.

Therefore, my conclusion from Randy's article cited above is that ESV solid (same as B-ionic?) and Warner Liquid are just DowFlakes in expensive bottles with nice labels. Of course that Randy didn't say that in his article - the lawyers at ESV would have skinned him alive (maybe they add a bit of pepper just to make sure it's not exaclty Dow Flakes).
Anyway, before I see some data I'll continue to believe that DowFlakes are as good as B-ionic.

Although it may sound stubborn, I'm really ready to listen to contrary opinions as long as they are supported by something else than company adds.

Mihai

 

[fyrefysh]

Although it may sound stubborn, I'm really ready to listen to contrary opinions as long as they are supported by something else than company adds.

This sounds fair to me, I guess there is no telling what ESV derives their products from and what mediums they start with. I'm sure that every chemical introduced to an aquarium is bound to have impurities (no matter how miniscule).[/quote]

 

[GSchiemer]

Greg, I double checked Randy's article on impurities in DowFlake:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm

The first observation is that I'm indeed not sure if what he tested "ESV Calcium Chloride" is the same as ESV's Calcium supplement. If it's not I have no data to claim that R-ionc is same as B-ionic.


Mihai

Your observation is incorrect. That article has nothing to do with comparing the formulas of various two-part solutions. You're confusing ESV's B-Ionic with their Calcium Supplement. They're not the same product. The calcium supplement is a solution of calcium chloride and not part of their balanced solution system. It can be used to boost calcium levels on a one-time basis but should not be part of a regular SINGLE dosing regimen. The "calcium" part of the B-Ionic system contains calcium, magnesium, strontium and other elements. They're completely different products.

I'd suggest finding and re-reading Randy's original article on a two-part solution alternative.

Greg

 

[Anonymous]

why would one use, or rather start to use this?

does it shock the tank when first introduced?

what kind of corals are kept in a tank that requires b-ionic?

or do all saltwater tanks require it?

for those "experts" or "exprienced" who know what i am currently keeping, is this something i should be using in my tank with? am i missing something by not using it?

i don't think i have any really "hard to keep" (exception to flowerpot coral, have it as a last resort :? ) livestock requiring this, so the real question is, does it just keep the water levels in balance?

as of right now i am not putting anything in the tank other than fresh made saltwater, and food.

does b-ionic just keep water parameters in check?

many questions about what to use to ensure a long lived, healthy coral reef....

You should already be using it. The 2 part b-ionic keeps your "buffer system" balanced and functional.

What is the buffer system? Well, your tank needs to be kept at a certain pH...around 8.2 is the target, but it is fine at 8.0 or so, etc...the important aspect is to keep it consistent. Keeping it at your target is the job of the buffer.

In simple terms, the buffer "eats away" or "absorbs" acid, or the dropping of your pH. Through respiration, excretion, breaking down of food and organic matter, acid is created in the tank. The buffer "absorbs" the acid as it is created, thereby maintaining the pH at a certain target level. When the buffer is used up, pH will drop rapidly!

The "buffer system" in salt water is the alkalinity-calcium-magnesium relationship. Magnesium to a lesser extent of course. The alk-calc is the main driving force, the magnesium is a secondary helper.

When used properly, b-ionic (or other 2 part additives) keeps the buffer at a specific level.

One more note...never use buffer to RAISE your pH. It will not raise the pH for any legnth of time, and high alk is bad for inhabitants. It will disrupt any ionic balance in the tank.

To raise pH, proper water changes of well mixed (24 hrs or more circulated) salt water will do this...which is another point...make sure you are properly mixing up your changeout water! Circulating it for 24 hrs. +, adding salt to the water, not water to salt etc....it takes about 24 hrs for the proper ionic balance to become stable when mixing up new water.

 

[Mihai]

Greg, I double checked Randy's article on impurities in DowFlake:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm

The first observation is that I'm indeed not sure if what he tested "ESV Calcium Chloride" is the same as ESV's Calcium supplement. If it's not I have no data to claim that R-ionc is same as B-ionic.

Mihai

Your observation is incorrect. That article has nothing to do with comparing the formulas of various two-part solutions. You're confusing ESV's B-Ionic with their Calcium Supplement. They're not the same product. The calcium supplement is a solution of calcium chloride and not part of their balanced solution system. It can be used to boost calcium levels on a one-time basis but should not be part of a regular SINGLE dosing regimen. The "calcium" part of the B-Ionic system contains calcium, magnesium, strontium and other elements. They're completely different products.

Greg

Well, I admitted that:

I'm indeed not sure if what he tested "ESV Calcium Chloride" is the same as ESV's Calcium supplement.

It's just that I thought that their calcium supplement is same as their calcium part in the two part solution (eventually add some magnesium to take care of that as well). I have no idea how you know that they are not the same, but if you say they're different, OK... I'll take your word for now.

Regarding the "complete" solution of B-ionic, really, do you have anything to go by except for their claim? Realistically it cannot be complete. To be truly complete it should take care of all elements in the periodic table, I don't think that they do that, no mater what they say there.

At least, Randy's last solution takes care of most major 7 ions in the water. They don't bothe to specify if they match 3, 4, 5, or 50 ions.

I'd suggest finding and re-reading Randy's original article on a two-part solution alternative.

I'm sorry, but I was unable to find the article by that name, do you have a link? I found the following two:

A Homemade Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Additive System
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... 4/chem.htm

and

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

I didn't see anything contradicting what I said. On the contrary, in the first Randy said:

Whether the commercial additives are formulated correctly or not, I cannot say.

while in the second one he says that he matches 7 ions (a claim only topped by the absurd claime to completness by B-ionic).

Perhaps I missed something in Randy's articles, or you have a better source of data on B-ionic, but for now I'm not convinced that B-ionic is better than R-ionic. If anything, R-ionic is something I know what it has in it, while B-ionic I have no idea (notice that I have the bottle and it only contains a list of elements without any quantities). For all I know B-ionic may be worse than R-ionic.

Regards,
Mihai

 

[GSchiemer]

Mihai,

Perhaps you missed this part of Randy's first article:

This solution is not perfect. If commercial two-part additives are formulated as they claim to be with all of the remaining ions present in seawater ratios, then this recipe is not as good as those formulations. Whether the commercial additives are formulated correctly or not, I cannot say.

ESV has proved to be a reputable company and they invented the two-part ionically-balanced supplement system. Athough I haven't tested their B-Ionic product, I have no reason to doubt their claims. Knowing Bob Stark, owner of ESV, I'm sure that he wouldn't make statements that were patently false and easily verified.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. You can't argue your point by saying a reputable company is lying about their product when you have no evidence to back up your statements. That's what's truly absurd. Even Randy states that his recipe is "not as good" and that he can't comment on the formulation of commercial alternatives to his "two-part" solution. How is it that you're able to comment?

Unless you spend the time doing some additional research or actual product testing, I'd suggest stopping here before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole.

Greg