You type faster than I do...all these letters on the keyboard are all mixed up here....I'm still confused as to where all my plant life is....my rocks have next to nothing on them.....the symbiotic algaes in the corals amount to nothing (the amount of tissue on a huge coral might fill a thimble)....where's all this plant life in my tank ?
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beaslbob":314v72m8 said:Righty":314v72m8 said:...
You have no evidence that the macros you keep uptake copper. You have a study of cold water macros which may or may not be related to the macros we keep (not to mention the lack of evidence regarding toxic metal buildup in the first place). I think it is irresponsible for you to keep making such dogmatic recommendations based on essentially no evidence.
then what exactly do you need for evidence? Guy's macros in Dr. Shimek's reef snapshots revealed in the ball park copper levels as those cold water macros that are not in our aquaria. Bioaccumulation factors of copper in macros have been measured to be up to 27,000. Caulpera's Ulva's and seaweeds are harvested and used a bio indicators up stream of copper mines and power plants to test for copper polution.
Until you can show the uptake rates, I think you have very little to support your idea that we should all use macros for control of copper.
Also Heavy Metal Toxicity is no where near proven.
What is irresponsible is to ignore all that evidence and flat out state than no plant life in our tank bioaccumulate any copper.
It is a very good think I never did anything like that then.
It is really frustrating when you polarize these discussions. They aren't nearly as binary as you seem to believe.
Cooper is so far away from something to be concerned about. Nothing a bit of carbon wouldnt take out. On the other hand, I am sure we can all dig up post from Bob that claim all you need is plant life, no skimmer, no mechanical filter, ect....I just dont have the time.
FWIW, since I have one system running SSB and one BB I can see how much detritus actually builds up. I have been able to suck out a small pile daily from my 40 breeder for a while. Detritus really plays a big part in nutrient control.
FWIW, this is the kind of garbage that gets repeated all over the internet. What "junk" are you talking about? It is a simple matter to handle nitrate and P04 with tried and true methods.
FWIW, since I have one system running SSB and one BB I can see how much detritus actually builds up. I have been able to suck out a small pile daily from my 40 breeder for a while. Detritus really plays a big part in nutrient control.
My concern is that will not prevent a very slow build up of stuff. You simply can not get all the junk before bacterial action. And therefore will have a slow build up.
FWIW, this is the kind of garbage that gets repeated all over the internet. What "junk" are you talking about? It is a simple matter to handle nitrate and P04 with tried and true methods.
beaslbob":2x9s9myo said:My philosophy in all my tanks is to get plant life as the main filtering and processing in the system. Then when something goes south. The plant life steps up, makes adjustments, and rapidly bring the system back to normal operation.
Bob, we have startlingly different view of "normal operation". The recent picture of your tank show very little growth. You have claimed over and over that you're getting tremendous growth from your SPS corals, I believe you stated 1/2" a month. I look at the pictures and I see almost no growth from Montopora digitata. That is unheard of, I have never seen a tank where brown M. digitata didn't grow. Yours is the first.
According to your previous posts your SPS frags should be colonies by now. We all knew that it was just BS just like most of the other stuff in your posts.
You claim to be trying to help new hobbiest but you always neglect to tell them that your method is NOT working for you.
I found the post.
Where did your Clams go?? They must be hiding....
beaslbob":10pskv81 said:My tank only has some snails, clams, and a sps. recently I do have some new corraline (about 10"x4" patch) and last week some newly added halimedia that are just taking off.
..... removed for brevity....
The sps has shown 1/2" or so of growth each month.
Becausl all my parameters never vary anymore, I did stop measuring things last Jan but did a couple of calcium tests after adding the halimeda last week. It was received all white, has greened up and is senting out new "coins" or "leaves". Calcium days after adding was still right on 400PPM.
Where did your Clams go?? They must be hiding....
Sure plant life is one of the many tools available.
Yet Rob and Lord plus many others continue to post problems yet refuse to employ that tool.
Steve:
thanks for the correction on the corraline. but even with urchins, it does grow then is consumed.
also just to clarify, corals do provided some of the same benefits to reef tanks the plants do to FW planted. Your awesome tank is obviously teaming with those corals and therefore teaming with plant life.
I consider it particularly dangerous for newbies to start systems and to be steared away from adding plant life as the very first thing. It is particulary dangerous for a newbie to do the initial rushing to fish, with rock, sand, and filters in whatever inmature state. Then add a cleaner crew and get rid of the plant life that is keeping the system in balance. that is a sure way to crash a system where the plant life is soley the hair algae on the rocks.
You may not think macros effectively consume anything yet I had a tank go from 160ppm+++ nitrates to 0 in three weeks. Sure low bioload. But it was a new tank with no circulation, no water changes, and no filtration. I don't recommend that for salt but it is a measure of how effective plant life is.
Until you have had those experiences you simply do not have any way of sensing how plant life does. For instance you cannot measure those things when doing water changes and having other filtration operating.
So we just have different experiences.
Meanwhile Rob has lost all his fish and rob and lord have these algae problems. Steve has ran a tank established with macros for two years then one without.
And newbies establishing tank with refugs report nitrates at 0, no algae problems, and thriving fish and corals.
Yet Rob and Lord plus many others continue to post problems yet refuse to employ that tool.
Steve:
thanks for the correction on the corraline. but even with urchins, it does grow then is consumed.
also just to clarify, corals do provided some of the same benefits to reef tanks the plants do to FW planted. Your awesome tank is obviously teaming with those corals and therefore teaming with plant life.
I consider it particularly dangerous for newbies to start systems and to be steared away from adding plant life as the very first thing. It is particulary dangerous for a newbie to do the initial rushing to fish, with rock, sand, and filters in whatever inmature state. Then add a cleaner crew and get rid of the plant life that is keeping the system in balance. that is a sure way to crash a system where the plant life is soley the hair algae on the rocks.
You may not think macros effectively consume anything yet I had a tank go from 160ppm+++ nitrates to 0 in three weeks. Sure low bioload. But it was a new tank with no circulation, no water changes, and no filtration. I don't recommend that for salt but it is a measure of how effective plant life is.
Until you have had those experiences you simply do not have any way of sensing how plant life does. For instance you cannot measure those things when doing water changes and having other filtration operating.
So we just have different experiences.
Meanwhile Rob has lost all his fish and rob and lord have these algae problems. Steve has ran a tank established with macros for two years then one without.
And newbies establishing tank with refugs report nitrates at 0, no algae problems, and thriving fish and corals.
beaslbob":3bkq09nn said:I consider it particularly dangerous for newbies to start systems and to be steared away from adding plant life as the very first thing. It is particulary dangerous for a newbie to do the initial rushing to fish, with rock, sand, and filters in whatever inmature state. Then add a cleaner crew and get rid of the plant life that is keeping the system in balance. that is a sure way to crash a system where the plant life is soley the hair algae on the rocks.
Bob, I don't think people here are steering newbies away from refugiums. I have probably explained the refugium concept to a newbie and recommended it a hundred times since I have been answering questions of reef boards. I love refugiums.
But like many reefkeeping tools, planted refugiums are not appropriate for every single reefkeeper's situation, and will not solve every single problem as you seem to claim it will. There simply is not one single right way to do things.
Laura
sure I do here more and more people recommending refugia to newbies. and plant life does not solve all problems. But I do here everyone recommending water changes as curing everything. Yet water changes are not as effective at say removing nitrates as plant life.
and rob, lord, and many others compain of dead fish and algaes yet noone recommends plant life.
When it becomes standard advice to set up a refugia with plant life, and to get the plant life in control before anything else then we will not have as many Rob and lord algae posts.
Guy regardless of what is happening, there is no hair algae anywhere. Just as there is none in your tank with your refugium. that is what is relevant to this and rob's algae threads.
sure I do here more and more people recommending refugia to newbies. and plant life does not solve all problems. But I do here everyone recommending water changes as curing everything. Yet water changes are not as effective at say removing nitrates as plant life.
and rob, lord, and many others compain of dead fish and algaes yet noone recommends plant life.
When it becomes standard advice to set up a refugia with plant life, and to get the plant life in control before anything else then we will not have as many Rob and lord algae posts.
Guy regardless of what is happening, there is no hair algae anywhere. Just as there is none in your tank with your refugium. that is what is relevant to this and rob's algae threads.
Rob_Reef_Keeper":2ye4jcel said:BTW bob, Since my LR is so fouled I do now have Macros growing on the LR. They came from somewhere. Some halmedia and some fern looking plant . Guess what - the hair algae is still growing like mad.
Once I get my new RO/DI filters and a good clean up crew/scrubbing the tank should rebound.
Most Halimeda love the same conditions that "SPS" type corals do.
beaslbob":3klqgnns said:Laura
sure I do here more and more people recommending refugia to newbies.
'fuges, at least non in tank 'fuges, present at least the same issues as sumps do, but you seem to argue against sumps but not 'fuges for newbies.
and plant life does not solve all problems.
But you consistently make it sound like they do. You do it later in this very post.*
But I do here everyone recommending water changes as curing everything.
Not really. You hear people recommend water changes when people are having an immediate problem. If they are having an immediate problem, it needs to be dealt with quickly, and water changes have immediate effects.
Yet water changes are not as effective at say removing nitrates as plant life.
If you need to lower your nitrates now, and you do the right size water changes...
and rob, lord, and many others compain of dead fish and algaes yet noone recommends plant life.
That is simply untrue. I am confounded by the amount of time you spend arguing against things that aren't true.
When it becomes standard advice to set up a refugia with plant life, and to get the plant life in control before anything else then we will not have as many Rob and lord algae posts.
*See.
Guy regardless of what is happening, there is no hair algae anywhere. Just as there is none in your tank with your refugium. that is what is relevant to this and rob's algae threads.
And you continually ignore the fact that there are plenty of people that have no 'fuge and also have not HA problems.
beaslbob":3a7yqrks said:You may not think macros effectively consume anything yet I had a tank go from 160ppm+++ nitrates to 0 in three weeks. Sure low bioload. But it was a new tank with no circulation, no water changes, and no filtration. I don't recommend that for salt but it is a measure of how effective plant life is.
And you continually refuse to face up to the fact that people have the same results in SW without 'plant life' but with circulation.
And newbies establishing tank with refugs report nitrates at 0, no algae problems, and thriving fish and corals.
And there are plenty of newbies that report the same without 'fuges - but you choose to ignore this.
steveweast":2mk43xxl said:I wil agree on one thing though.....we are derailing this thread with all this and I apologize. I will take my leave now.....but, the answer, IMO, to an algae problem is efficient nutrient export.....just pick the tools that are right for you.
Thank you steve for posting some of the smartest words I've heard concerning hair algae and the beaslbob war to date!
This conversation is like a broken record that keeps ruining threads that were ment to help people in need.
beaslbob":1g5kbn37 said:Guy regardless of what is happening, there is no hair algae anywhere. Just as there is none in your tank with your refugium. that is what is relevant to this and rob's algae threads.
I have LOTS of hair algae. I don't know where you got the idea that I don't. Fortunately I have LOTS of animals that eat it. Urchins, Rabbitfish, Bubble-Shell Snails, Amphipods, etc.
Reduced nutrients allows these animals to keep up with the Algae growth. Growing Macro Algae helps, it is NOT a full solution, it can be part of a solution. Rob has lost less that 1/4 of the animals you have lost. So, whatever he's doing it's a whole lot better than what you're doing.
It just amazes me that you continue to push people to emulate what you do and yet your tank is failing. Where are your clams? Where is that SPS growth you have been bragging about? After all the death in your tank you still blame losses on everything but the methods you push on new hobbiests. Time to open your eyes Bob. Your tank is a failure. Perhaps you should rethink your reef husbandry tools and keep more in the toolbox that a handful of algae.
Oceans Ferevh":2f8jpabm said:steveweast":2f8jpabm said:I wil agree on one thing though.....we are derailing this thread with all this and I apologize. I will take my leave now.....but, the answer, IMO, to an algae problem is efficient nutrient export.....just pick the tools that are right for you.
Thank you steve for posting some of the smartest words I've heard concerning hair algae and the beaslbob war to date!
This conversation is like a broken record that keeps ruining threads that were ment to help people in need.
I agree Bethany, while at the same time not knowing what else to do but respond when Bob posts. I believe, based on past similar experience, that if what he posts is not countered there will be a slew of people taking his 'advice' as gospel - and that seems to me to be against the purpose of RDO. If you have any other ideas on how to better handle the situation, please PM me.
Ok Righty I tried your method on one of my rocks today..Im gonna see how that works...Steve is right..this thread is derailing at an exponential rate...So what critters could i get to help eleviate my algae problem? Large fish are out...I had a short spined urchin (carrier urchin) in there and that maybe what kept out the HA...I also removed it from my tank..It was eating all my Coralline...I agree that its all about nutrient export..The smithosian system approach(beaslbobs method) is seemingly hit or miss when it comes to erradicating this kinda problem..For the record, your lack of W/C beaslbob is the reason why your tank has yellow tinted water..
Your right lord it has distracted.
I do use turbos to help with the display area and they did remove the hair on the rocks in about a week or so. That was before I added macros and about 2-3 month later I could no longer add fish. All of that turned around when I added macros.
And the tint is green not yellow. :lol: Plus my other two salt and one fw are crystal clear.
I do use turbos to help with the display area and they did remove the hair on the rocks in about a week or so. That was before I added macros and about 2-3 month later I could no longer add fish. All of that turned around when I added macros.
And the tint is green not yellow. :lol: Plus my other two salt and one fw are crystal clear.
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