fluidized bed question
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IMO your entire system is a nitrate factory.
I do not use a fludized bed filter but some DIY calcium reactors do use the concept. Basically it operates much like an undergravel filter only is external. Therefore, maintenance can be done without treaing down your system plus the display items like rocks do not interfer with its operation.
I do use a DIY trickle filter with crushed oyster shells and landscape lava rocks at the intake and outlet. I rinse the shells once per week and get a ton of junk out. Calcium rose to and has stayed at 400ppm for months now. My few SPS's are showing very nice growth.
All the while my nitrates are 0-5ppm.
As I said your entire system is a nitrate factory. The question is what you do about them. IMO the best short and long term solution is to have fast growing thriving plant life like macros in a refugium. That way regardless of where the nitrates come from, they are immediately consumed. Resulting in a stable, easy to maintain, and inexpensive system.
I do not use a fludized bed filter but some DIY calcium reactors do use the concept. Basically it operates much like an undergravel filter only is external. Therefore, maintenance can be done without treaing down your system plus the display items like rocks do not interfer with its operation.
I do use a DIY trickle filter with crushed oyster shells and landscape lava rocks at the intake and outlet. I rinse the shells once per week and get a ton of junk out. Calcium rose to and has stayed at 400ppm for months now. My few SPS's are showing very nice growth.
All the while my nitrates are 0-5ppm.
As I said your entire system is a nitrate factory. The question is what you do about them. IMO the best short and long term solution is to have fast growing thriving plant life like macros in a refugium. That way regardless of where the nitrates come from, they are immediately consumed. Resulting in a stable, easy to maintain, and inexpensive system.
radar!":5mn40l5q said:
To answer your question...I hope. Fluidized bed filters will eventually fill your tank with nitrates, which in large amounts will certainly harm your inverts, and possibly everything else. They will act exactly like sponges, biowheels, crushed oyster shells
, and all that other crap, overloading your system with nitrates eventually. I have a HUGE fluidized bed filter, that sits in my closet, for this reason. Scrap it man, its a waste. Sorry that you spent the cash on it.For once, I disagree with Tackett 8O Nitrates only build up if you don't maintain your equipment properly. Control and balance is essential.
Problem is, many reefers do not clean out their bioball systems, fluidized beds, etc because that essentially destroys bacteria.
However, IF you want to, you can. You just need to realize the implications of doing so and how to avoid nitrate problems. Do NOT overstock your tank with fish, do not overfeed, clean your equipment often. Pre-filtering biological filter media is the best method, change out or clean pre-filter media weekly.
Your mileage may vary :twisted:
Problem is, many reefers do not clean out their bioball systems, fluidized beds, etc because that essentially destroys bacteria.
However, IF you want to, you can. You just need to realize the implications of doing so and how to avoid nitrate problems. Do NOT overstock your tank with fish, do not overfeed, clean your equipment often. Pre-filtering biological filter media is the best method, change out or clean pre-filter media weekly.
Your mileage may vary :twisted:
Again, let's want until the following question is answered:
>... Why do you think you need this type of filter?
When fluidized, the sand can hold much more bacteria, and it is a lot more efficient than bioball on per volumn basis. There is nothing to clean on a fluidized bed (cf. Unleashed comment on bioball) due to the high velocity flow.
>... Why do you think you need this type of filter?
When fluidized, the sand can hold much more bacteria, and it is a lot more efficient than bioball on per volumn basis. There is nothing to clean on a fluidized bed (cf. Unleashed comment on bioball) due to the high velocity flow.
Not too mention that the constant contact with the water will help maintain calcium levels if the media is calcium carbonate based. It is a totally different method of operation than a calcium carbonate based stagnent, anaerobic sand bed. And also totally different than the non calcium carbonate bio balls.
If the nitrate factory point is the only point against fluidized bed filter than a refugium full of macros totally prevents the nitrate build up in the system. Therefore, the nitrate factory is not a reason to avoid the fluidized bed filter.
And if it acts as my trickle filter, then a very inexpensive method of maintaing calcium levels is realized.
If the nitrate factory point is the only point against fluidized bed filter than a refugium full of macros totally prevents the nitrate build up in the system. Therefore, the nitrate factory is not a reason to avoid the fluidized bed filter.
And if it acts as my trickle filter, then a very inexpensive method of maintaing calcium levels is realized.
A fluidized bed (like any aerobic bacterial filter) doesn't provide denitrification like live rock and live sand, thus adding to the difficulty of keeping nitrate levels undetectable (at least on hobby kits) which IMO is where you should be at with a properly run reef.
ChrisRD":1h9t4ed7 said:beaslbob":1h9t4ed7 said:
Start running a good skimmer and you won't be able to get a reading at all...
...of course your macros might die-off (along with your nuisance algaes) due to lack of fuel... ...but we wouldn't want that!...
Not if you have a good nitrate factory. :lol:
So assuming we both are correct the choice is $150-200 worth of skimmer or 0-$5 worth of macros. I'll take the later. And also remove copper and other heavymetals from the system as will.
Plus I'll never have to empty a skimmer cup, clean a skimmer, make adustments etc etc etc.
Plus I would rather look at macro algaes than a skimmer any day. And my tang much prefers the taste of the macros.
Back to the issue of the FBF...
If you ever get a power outage, it stops functioning...once it does, there is a ton of immediate die off in the filter. Once power comes back on, it dumps all of this now toxic material into your tank. Not good.
Do a search on this site and in Google as well. IMHO, they aren't something you want on a reef tank...maybe a FO though.
Just my .02
If you ever get a power outage, it stops functioning...once it does, there is a ton of immediate die off in the filter. Once power comes back on, it dumps all of this now toxic material into your tank. Not good.
Do a search on this site and in Google as well. IMHO, they aren't something you want on a reef tank...maybe a FO though.
Just my .02
hclh20fish.
Sure you have die off with a poweroutage. But with plant life and light, the ammonia from that die off is immediately consumed by the plant life. Just like when there is bio spikes from other sources. The nitrogen cycle is stopped dead in its tracks, the water column is oxygenated, supporting aerobic bacteria, carbon dioxide is consumed, and any toxic anaerobic produces are bio accumulted by the palnt life.
sure you have die off with a power outage. that remains in the filter. and when power returns the system is ready and able to consume the waste products being generate. and the system recovers with no loss of life.
With a skimmer even assuming that it does remove say over 90% of the bio load. During a poweroutaqe that action stops. Now you don't have the aerobic bacteria, DOCs are anerobically rotting in the water column, there is no plant life to consume the waste products. The system crashes with the most likely result that most everything is lost.
As I stated before, I would rather spend $5 on macro algae then $150-$200 on a skimmer.
Sure you have die off with a poweroutage. But with plant life and light, the ammonia from that die off is immediately consumed by the plant life. Just like when there is bio spikes from other sources. The nitrogen cycle is stopped dead in its tracks, the water column is oxygenated, supporting aerobic bacteria, carbon dioxide is consumed, and any toxic anaerobic produces are bio accumulted by the palnt life.
sure you have die off with a power outage. that remains in the filter. and when power returns the system is ready and able to consume the waste products being generate. and the system recovers with no loss of life.
With a skimmer even assuming that it does remove say over 90% of the bio load. During a poweroutaqe that action stops. Now you don't have the aerobic bacteria, DOCs are anerobically rotting in the water column, there is no plant life to consume the waste products. The system crashes with the most likely result that most everything is lost.
As I stated before, I would rather spend $5 on macro algae then $150-$200 on a skimmer.
Unleashed":8jrerzl6 said:
Cleaning out a FBF defeats the purpose of its use it will destroy the bacteria, as you stated. Though sponges can be used, and if cleaned regularly will not become nitrate factories, I agree with that. I also never thought of prefiltering before the FBF, which would help tremendously. IMO however, I still think it will eventually become a NO3 can hooked to your tank, but I have no experience or basis other than theory for that prior statement. The FBF I ran for a few months (with no prefilter) cranked my NO3 levels through the roof.
beaslbob":11746w4s said:
If you had experience with both setups you'd understand the differences between them - they're far from equivalent.
beaslbob":11746w4s said:
The problem with that logic is there's no assurance that the toxic metals are being absorbed by your macros before those toxins are having a negative effect on something else in the system. The only real assurance of that is to not to add them to the system to begin with.
beaslbob":11746w4s said:
In a poweroutage where is the light for the algae filter coming from Bob? What happens if your power is out for days and the macros start dieing-off with no light? Then they dump nutrients back into the system...
OTOH, with live rock and live sand, as long as you keep some circulation going with battery powered air pumps you'll be fine for several days or more since bacteria don't require light to function and the filtration media isn't stuffed in tube that will go anoxic within hours (ie. fluidized bed).
beaslbob":11746w4s said:
If you actually had any experience with the above scenario you'd realize how ridiculous that statement is.
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