I was wondering if anyone running barebottom has experience placing live rock directly on the bottom of their glass tanks? I know some are recommending starboard, but do you think that's a necessary insurance policy? I've got about 180 pounds of rock in my 150 gallon tank.
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Removing Sand bed - Could I put Live Rock On Glass Bottom?
- Thread starter Gumbo
- Start date
It'd probably be a wise idea with something that size and weight.
If the physics happen to work out through your rock arrangement that enough weight is applied to a tiny spot on your tank bottom without starboard to absorb and distribute the weight, that you could wind up with a catastrophic failure of the bottom glass.
I doubt you really want to prove the chaos theory right so easily. - Am I correct?
If the physics happen to work out through your rock arrangement that enough weight is applied to a tiny spot on your tank bottom without starboard to absorb and distribute the weight, that you could wind up with a catastrophic failure of the bottom glass.
I doubt you really want to prove the chaos theory right so easily. - Am I correct?
what's w/ the deal of so many people pulling out their sand beds? What kind of flow were you running? I have run sand beds of the 3-4" depth for over 5 years & have seen better results with than w/o sand. I also siphon the top layer of detritus of the sand like I did in my bare bottom tanks though. I think alot of people may be leaving it in there? Spot cleaning a tank to me is like scooping up your dog's poop! Leave it laying around & you will be removing your carpet for a bare bottom house! Ha Ha,
I just leave the dog poop there, and after a few days the dung beetles have eaten it all. LOL Same with the sand bed. I think a major problem with DSB's is that people dont have the right critters living in it, or have the wrong particle size, and the critters wont live in it. With the right sand dwelling organisms in the sand there should be no need to siphon any detritus.
what about all the people who place all their rock on the glass, and then put the sand in. That is a very popular way to set up a tank.
Not only the most popular but the most recommended, why? Because sand sifting fish and inverts could easily demolish your nicely stacked rockwork.
I personally don't know anyone that has ever used starboard and quite frankly have only recently heard alot about it here on RDO. I think you would definately be ok. I have gone BB a few times with anywhere from 45lbs - 90 lbs without any scares....
I think a major problem with DSB's is...
Too bad the original poster wasn;t inquiring about a DSB debate.... :wink:
And your point is...?Too bad the original poster wasn;t inquiring about a DSB debate....
Well, my 150 gallon tank looked best when I had a plenum system installed. Unfortunatly, I jumped on the Southdown band wagon a couple of years ago when my tank's center brace broke. I decided that I needed to replace the tank anyway and the whole concept of a DSB was appealing. The sand bed still seems very active with a vast assortment of worms and pods. The problem is, I've got cyano and some hair algea problems that are becoming worse every week. I'm down to feeding 1 time per week, performing water changes, replacing bulbs, skimming wet, running phosphate sponges, carbon, polyfilter, seeding the sand bed, etc, but nothing seems to really work. I've previously run a small barebottom 38 gallon FOWLR for over 10 years and clean up was easy. I'm hoping that a high flow barebottom tank will be easier to manage.
Saltykirk":2x59sdpt said:what's w/ the deal of so many people pulling out their sand beds? What kind of flow were you running? I have run sand beds of the 3-4" depth for over 5 years & have seen better results with than w/o sand. I also siphon the top layer of detritus of the sand like I did in my bare bottom tanks though. I think alot of people may be leaving it in there? Spot cleaning a tank to me is like scooping up your dog's poop! Leave it laying around & you will be removing your carpet for a bare bottom house! Ha Ha,
There is much evidence that indicates that a sand bed fills up over time, and once full it will re release phosphates and other nasties. There is no good way to tell how long it will take a particular sand bed to fill up - it might take 50 years, but it seems more like 4-6 given the bio load and the feeding regimen most people use.
Scooping the poop should extend the time it takes the bed to fill up. The bulk of DSB'ers either set up the bed and forget it, or keep adding new fauna. Most of these don't do the checks that Dr Ron recommends.
It appears to also be the case that there is no research that says that sand beds do what Dr Ron says they do.
And, the idea that putting sand near the corals is mimicking nature is bunk - there really is no sand close to reefs except in the sense that most of the ocean bottom is sand. If sand were good for corals we should see more of them on the sand in nature.
The more compelling reason to remove the sand for me is why bother to support all that life. Remove the sand and you gain more water volume and you don't have all of that 'life' needing to be fed and sucking up oxygen. Its not just a question of why would people leave all that matter to rot in the sand, its why would you want to use so many resources to keep alive a bunch of critters you never see.
I am planning on removing my sand because I really cant see any good reason to keep it.
ZooKeeper":25yhhnvv said:I just leave the dog poop there, and after a few days the dung beetles have eaten it all. LOL Same with the sand bed. I think a major problem with DSB's is that people dont have the right critters living in it, or have the wrong particle size, and the critters wont live in it. With the right sand dwelling organisms in the sand there should be no need to siphon any detritus.
But does it really make sense to think that the sand bed fauna will break down everything forever? It doesn't happen anywhere in nature, why would we think it happen in our tanks?
Gumbo":3ex6aa2l said:The sand bed still seems very active with a vast assortment of worms and pods. The problem is, I've got cyano and some hair algea problems that are becoming worse every week. I'm down to feeding 1 time per week, performing water changes, replacing bulbs, skimming wet, running phosphate sponges, carbon, polyfilter, seeding the sand bed, etc, but nothing seems to really work.
Sounds very much like your sand bed has reached capacity.
ZooKeeper":2nfex5cm said:Actually it does happen in nature, and in water treatment plants,and in cleaning oil spills, and countless other places where micro organisms are cleaning up the waste of the world.
No it doesn't - I said forever because that is how most people think about sand beds; set it and forget it.
No one is denying the utility of a sand bed in the short term, it is the long term that there seem to be issues.
And I never said anything about forever.
Then we agree about a sand bed not being able to do what the bulk of people claim it does.
With the right sand dwelling organisms in the sand there should be no need to siphon any detritus.
How do you go about determining that you have the right sand dwelling organisms?
Even Dr Ron advocates replacing your sand and rock every 5 years.
LOL Good answer. who cleans up for nature then?ZooKeeper wrote:
Actually it does happen in nature, and in water treatment plants,and in cleaning oil spills, and countless other places where micro organisms are cleaning up the waste of the world.
No it doesn't
Yes I can agree with that. Mostly due to bad info, and the wrong setup. Take the jaubert method, what does he say hardly any rock covering the sand surface, and very low bio-load, no sand shifters, ect.Then we agree about a sand bed not being able to do what the bulk of people claim it does.
And what do people do, expect it to perform miracles. They dont follow the proper guidelines, and have failure.
By buying good livesand, and not relying on liverock to supply these things. I would rather replace a small portion of the sandbed once a year than do the whole thing.How do you go about determining that you have the right sand dwelling organisms?
Even Dr Ron advocates replacing your sand and rock every 5 years.
ZooKeeper":2iolrrx1 said:LOL Good answer.ZooKeeper wrote:
Actually it does happen in nature, and in water treatment plants,and in cleaning oil spills, and countless other places where micro organisms are cleaning up the waste of the world.
No it doesn't
Not very sporting of you to ignore the rest of my sentence in your quote.
who cleans up for nature then?
Mostly dilution, locking waste in vast undisturbed areas of the ocean, and by the moving of waste from one area to another. And over the long term, by completely changing the life that lives in the area. Nature is very big and animals and waste move a long way - to compare that to our systems seems odd. And, aren't we seeing the ability of Nature to deal with waste being pushed to its limit?
Are you familiar with the black water events in the Gulf?
Yes I can agree with that. Mostly due to bad info, and the wrong setup. Take the jaubert method, what does he say hardly any rock covering the sand surface, and very low bio-load, no sand shifters, ect.Then we agree about a sand bed not being able to do what the bulk of people claim it does.
And what do people do, expect it to perform miracles. They dont follow the proper guidelines, and have failure.
Almost no one follows Dr Rons guidelines for determining the 'correct' number and type of sand fauna. In the Jaubert method, I still don't see what you get from the sand. Why not just remove the waste before it begins to break down?
I think we basically agree about people expecting miracles.
By buying good livesand, and not relying on liverock to supply these things.How do you go about determining that you have the right sand dwelling organisms?
Even Dr Ron advocates replacing your sand and rock every 5 years.
How do determine what is good live sand? How do you keep track of it being good and alive?
I would rather replace a small portion of the sandbed once a year than do the whole thing.
But why have the sand at all? Why bother keeping it alive so you can chuck part of it every year? Why bother with the time and expense? Why not just export the waste before it breaks down?
Gumbo":3suqxd1l said:I was wondering if anyone running barebottom has experience placing live rock directly on the bottom of their glass tanks?
I have run some tanks with the rock structure stacked right on the glass bottom before with no problems. Just make sure the rockwork is locked together well. You can also use acrylic rod, zip ties, underwater epoxy, etc. to attach some of the rocks to each other to make things more stable.
That said, I've seen some pics online of people attaching substrate to polyethylene sheets (aka "starboard") and it looks cool. Nicer aesthetically than a plain bare bottom, but basically functions like one (without permanently altering the tank).
For one I only buy the sand from a very reputable dealer. Not live sand in a bag. You can see alot of life in the sand. After it is in the tank, I can see the worm tubes that are formed, and see pods and micro brittles in the sand.
One of the main reasons I keep the sand is for a natural food supply for my fish and corals. I dont, and have never supplimented any food for both. I only have three fish, that all feed on plankton and pods. And I do try to remove most of the waste before it breaks down, thats why I have more than 30 times tank volume for circulation, and use a skimmer. I also use a refugium with mangroves, and additional livesand and rock, where the flow is much less than the main tank. Detritus can easily settle out in there and be dealt with. Usually there is nothing to collect.
One of the main reasons I keep the sand is for a natural food supply for my fish and corals. I dont, and have never supplimented any food for both. I only have three fish, that all feed on plankton and pods. And I do try to remove most of the waste before it breaks down, thats why I have more than 30 times tank volume for circulation, and use a skimmer. I also use a refugium with mangroves, and additional livesand and rock, where the flow is much less than the main tank. Detritus can easily settle out in there and be dealt with. Usually there is nothing to collect.
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