Removing Sand bed - Could I put Live Rock On Glass Bottom?

[Anonymous]

For one I only buy the sand from a very reputable dealer. Not live sand in a bag. You can see alot of life in the sand. After it is in the tank, I can see the worm tubes that are formed, and see pods and micro brittles in the sand.

So you are guessing that you have the right kinds of critters. I say this not as a negative, but to be accurate for people who want to do a sand bed right.

One of the main reasons I keep the sand is for a natural food supply for my fish and corals.

Do you have any evidence that the sand actually produces any food in any significant amounts? I haven't been able to find any - just people saying it is so.

I dont, and have never supplimented any food for both. I only have three fish, that all feed on plankton and pods.

There are many that do the same without the sand.

And I do try to remove most of the waste before it breaks down, thats why I have more than 30 times tank volume for circulation, and use a skimmer. I also use a refugium with mangroves, and additional livesand and rock, where the flow is much less than the main tank. Detritus can easily settle out in there and be dealt with. Usually there is nothing to collect.

Cool. The only thing about any of that that I question is the sand.

 

[ZooKeeper1]

I dont claim to be a scientist, but I do have common sence. I use organisms that live in the sand to disturb the sand. Same thing Dr. Ron would tell ya. The only evidence I have of a food supply is my own, my fish have plenty to eat, and I have heathy corals that grow at good rates.
I think of my reef as an ecosystem. I cant and dont try to contribute my success to the sand bed, or any other one part of my system.

 

[Anonymous]

I dont claim to be a scientist, but I do have common sence. I use organisms that live in the sand to disturb the sand. Same thing Dr. Ron would tell ya.

But Dr. Ron cant/won't show any study that shows such disturbance to be worthwhile. People with or without the sand critters have about the same success and failure rates. It is a nice notion and would be great if true, but I would really like to see some science to back it up. In other words, why do we want to disturb the bed at all?

The only evidence I have of a food supply is my own, my fish have plenty to eat, and I have heathy corals that grow at good rates.

Fair enough. The only wrench I see is that people have the same success without the sand or its huge bio load.

I think of my reef as an ecosystem. I cant and dont try to contribute my success to the sand bed, or any other one part of my system.

Fabu. We agree!
I am not seeing any good reason to deal with the expense or the 'hassle' of a sand bed.

Good discussion.

 

[ZooKeeper1]

yes it is a good discussion.
I personally want the sand to be moved so there is less chance of clumping, either by bacterial action or high calcium levels. Also to keep coralline from forming a solid sheet over the sand.
As far as other peoples tanks , most i've seen and heard about suppliment feedings quite heavily. I personally dont know anyone that doesn't feed anything in their reef.

 

[ZooKeeper1]

Now I dont know what lives in the sand on the reef, but I live at the beach, and what I find in the sand are alot of nassarius snails consuming waste, and hermits sifting through the sand. I use these in my tank as well. Digging through the sand you come across a bunch of different sand worms, and amphipods.
This is very similar to the things in my sand bed. the visible ones anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

I was wondering if anyone running barebottom has experience placing live rock directly on the bottom of their glass tanks? I know some are recommending starboard, but do you think that's a necessary insurance policy? I've got about 180 pounds of rock in my 150 gallon tank.

Rock on glass is definitely a risky prospect. I run all bare bottom systems, only the two displays are glass, the rest are fiberglass. In the glass bottom tanks, the rock is not stacked, so there is no risk of it falling.

 

[Anonymous]

I would definitely put something between the glass and the rock - starboard is nice, but acrylic will work just fine.

I second that. The thicker the better.

 

[Anonymous]

Actually it does happen in nature

Sure doesn't. Detritus and dead/decaying matter sinks to the abyssal plain during decomposition. The water here does not mix with water layers above, so this material has been physically exported (rather than broken down on site). Tectonic subduction captures the final product.

 

[Baianotang]

Imagine a big rock falling on the bare glass...bye bye hundreds of $$$.

 

[ZooKeeper1]

LMMFAO

 

[vair]

ChrisRD, are you saying that people take starboard and basicly glue sand to it. That does sound interesting. With starboard does it get siliconed to the bottom glass, to keep waste out from between the layers?

Dave

 

[Anonymous]

There is much evidence that indicates that a sand bed fills up over time, and once full it will re release phosphates and other nasties.

The tank becomes eutrophic, which, although many corals are competitive enough to live in this sort of environment (if other conditions are favorable; ie grazing), it does allow fleshy macroalgae that occurs in eutrophic and mesotrophic (somewhere between oligotrophic and eutrophic) to grow, and be a nuisance.

Once the phosphates in the bed begin to leach where there is light, cyanobacteria, which don't need any dissolved forms of nitrogen but fix the omnipresent N2 gas dissolved in the seawater, will grow.

Scooping the poop should extend the time it takes the bed to fill up.

If you do do this to a bed long term (scooping, that is), I would add a note of caution that you are releasing hydrogen sulfide and dangerous (to corals) organic molecules arising from the coupled activity of autotrophic sulfur reducing bacteria and autrophic denitrifying bacteria into the water. So, disturb the bed carefully if you must disturb it at all. Righty can tell you all about the results of this.

And, the idea that putting sand near the corals is mimicking nature is bunk - there really is no sand close to reefs except in the sense that most of the ocean bottom is sand.

I always have and likely always will hold the opinion that sand has absolutely no place in a coral tank. But that's just me.

 

[Anonymous]

And, the idea that putting sand near the corals is mimicking nature is bunk - there really is no sand close to reefs except in the sense that most of the ocean bottom is sand.

I suppose there isn't much sand in really high-energy (flow) environments, but the near-shore reefs I've dove feature plenty of nice sand between the coral heads.

 

[Anonymous]

One of the main reasons I keep the sand is for a natural food supply for my fish and corals.

I highly doubt your sandbed is providing anything close to natural in terms of the plankton or organisms it produces. Not to mention, corals are mixotrophic, and one of the most efficient ways for them to acquire their additional food demands is through dissolved nutrients, and many of them even do this indirectly through bacteria culture (especially in the Acropora genus). In fact, calcification that generates protons may be evolutionarily linked to using nutrients, as the protons gather anionic nutrients. In nature, they even go so far as to use mucous rafts to force nutrients to accumulate and be retained on the reef crest benthos.

 

[Anonymous]

Scooping the poop should extend the time it takes the bed to fill up.

If you do do this to a bed long term (scooping, that is), I would add a note of caution that you are releasing hydrogen sulfide and dangerous (to corals) organic molecules arising from the coupled activity of autotrophic sulfur reducing bacteria and autrophic denitrifying bacteria into the water. So, disturb the bed carefully if you must disturb it at all. Righty can tell you all about the results of this.

For the last two years I have been stirring my sand with a power head every 4 months or so - at the same time cranking up the skimmer and putting a micron sock on the overflows. Last time I did it, I also decided to remove some of the sand for aesthetic reasons and mixed up quite a storm - but no more than the usual stirrings. Forgot the micron sock, and it turns out my skimmer wasn't working because the needle wheel was very clogged. Took 3 days to figure it out. Nothing was exported during the three days and my efflo, blue tort and a couple frags started having tissue recession. Carbon, polyfilter, ROWA reactor and big ol water change happened as well as fixing the skimmer. About a month later everything is on the mend with new growth, so nothing horrible just depressing - and all my fault.
This has led me to very much consider removing the sand, besides the other arguments listed in this thread, it does seem that maintaining a sand bed is simply risky. Heck, even removing a single rock from the sand can cause release of ickies.
In the near future the plan is to remove the sand and revamp/clean up the entire system. Like having a whole new tank!

 

[Gumbo]

Wow...After pulling some "fleshy leathery" macroalgea from my rocks and inadvertently fragging a big caulastrea, I come back to this thread and need to research tectonic subduction. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Wow...After pulling some "fleshy leathery" macroalgea from my rocks and inadvertently fraged a big caulastrea, I come back to this thread and need to research tectonic subduction. :lol:

I believe everything goes through once every million years - or is it 4 million - or is it longer...

 

[Anonymous]

ChrisRD, are you saying that people take starboard and basicly glue sand to it. That does sound interesting. With starboard does it get siliconed to the bottom glass, to keep waste out from between the layers?

Dave

Heard about it too, but never seen any pics. Chris got a link?

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=1

 

[Gumbo]

Thanks for the link Galleon!

I really like the look of sand/CC glued to starboard. I think I'll plan to do the same. Anyone think .5 inch thick HDPE isn't thick enough? I'd hate to have have it start warping.