Are ethical debates about reefkeeping worthwhile?

[Len]

But cows and trees aren't in danger of extinction

I'm not a zealous animal rights activist by any means (not saying there's anything wrong with that, mind you). I am also not advocating we give up our reef tanks. Speaking for me only, I'm just trying to encourage everyone to think about the big responsibility they (should) assume when keeping tropical marine wildlife. Too often, I think the only pressure they feel from buying fish is related to their wallets.

FWIW, I really think that it's entirely possible for our hobby to have minimal impact on wild reefs. But at present, I do not believe this is the case. There's a big disparity between what should be and what is. I think our goal should be to make what should be what is (and not the other way around).

 

[ztw]

I appreciate the civil discussion. I think one thing is pretty certain, no one's mind will be changed despite anything said on this thread.

I for one do not feel guilty nor feel keeping my reef tank is destroying any reef, and in no way at all feel guilt nor feel unethical at all. It was stated that someone agreed with me on coral collection as being a renewable resource, but it is not properly managed at this time--maybe so maybe not, I have no data to make that judgement. You woulkd have to have detailed data about the number of actual corals, not rock, are collected vs. the number of corals left in that area to make that statement. Considering Borneman's and Veron's remarks for the species I mentioned it appears at least to them that the hobby has no impact on those species, the ones of interest to me personally.

As for fish, buy captive bred and the issue is resolved. Also, there are areas where no cyanide is used, buy fish from those areas as much as can be determined, I have been told that no cyanide is used in Fiji, Tonga, Marshall Islands, Hawaii, Sri Lanka, and maybe other areas--don't know this for a fact as I have never been there to see myself. A Local store gets fish from the Indian Ocean (Sri Lanka) weekly through a wholesaler in LA and these fish are supposedly net caught, the weekly list he gats says net caught (I know this is no real proof, but some evidence), they arrive without any mortality to him and I have personally seen these fish eat immediately and appear to be very healthy, the store owner says that he has not had a customer report a death thus far in about a month of getting these fish so I assume they are in fact net caught. Anyway, my point is that hobbyists can find net caught or captive bred fish.

Again, corals are not collected with drugs so trying to bring the discussion back to saying cyanide destroys corals is not valid in discussing proper coral collection, of course corals are destroyed when cyanide is used, but the cyanide is used to collect fish and not corals--this point gets back to the fish issue discussed above. Assuming larger coral collection businesses such as one famous one in Fiji are in fact profitable businesses, then I assume because of the number of years they have operated that they do practice well managed and sustainable practices for coral collection. Had their practices been haphazard and recklkess then they likely would have been gone from business long ago. Again, in their books Borneman and Veron do not feel that the collection of many coral species for the hobby has any significant impact on reefs. Technically an impact, maybe, significant impact--no, not at all, for most of all the popular aquarium species.

Seems to me the only real issue is cyanide collection of fish. Wholesalers and LFS weed out those shippers that do a poor job of handling/packing/shipping because the wholesaler and LFS must be profitable and they would not if they were always getting extreme mortality. Folks are working on the cyanide issue on this and other forums addressing it and are currently working on the issue and you can always buy net caught or captive bred. So, I see no need to beat up on yourself for being a reefkeeper, sleep well.

 

[Len]

As I've said before, even if no one's mind is changed, we all gain a new perspective. That alone is worthwhile IMO.

I admit that the crux of my ethical dilmena is with fish and not so much with corals. Captive bred corals are much easier to come by and wild populations are sustainable. But captive bred fish are limited in selection and availability, plus their prices are prohibitive right now. Even net caught fish have impact on natural reefs. There's no doubt netting is the more responsible way to catch fish, but that does not mean it can't ravage an ecosystem. Again, read the statistical data I posted concerning net-caught Hawaiian fish. In good conscience, I can't say my fish purchases have negligable effect on wild populations. It makes the care for my fish that much more significant for me, and I hope can instill same sense of responsibility for anyone reading this thread.

In regards to the cyanide issue, you make it sound like there's a simple solution. You're invited to the Industry forum to discuss your ideas. It's really not a simple issue as we've all found out, and progress is slow. There is indeed extreme mortality rates that few I know deny, all factored into the final retail cost.

Once again, I'm not suggesting hobbyists "beat themselves up" over keeping fish. But I'd like them to gain a new perspective of their hobby. Fish are not disposable, and our activities aren't beneign if we don't do them responsibily. Bottom line is an entire ecosystem is tittering on collaspe and we should be very careful when doing anything that may expedite its demise.

A simplified thought process:
Q: Why do I have a reef tank?
A: Because it's a fun hobby.
Q: Do many fish die for me to have said fun?
A: Yes.
That's where my ethical dilmena comes from. Obviously, it also has a lot to do with whether one believes these deaths have any significant impact on the grander scale of the world ecosystem. Simply put, I do and you don't. I think this is the real issue.

 

[ztw]

I think you want your cake and eat it too, as the saying goes. You so quickly dispel the captive bred fish issue. They are readily available, sure species are somewhat limited, but if you have a problem with wild collected then this is a real solution. Net collection you also dispel as still having impact, well yes technically, but not significantly. A couple of nice captive bred clownfish and a few dottybacks and the average reef tank is all set.

I do not attempt to make light of the issue of dealing with cyanide usage, just not the main issue of this thread and it is being discussed and somethings are being done, albeit slowly, but the issue is being addressed at least in some small way and slowly and hopefully gaining momentum. I am not an expert at all in the issue so no need to take on battle with the folks in the industry forum, they just seem to like to beat up on each other more than anything and sure does not seem to be much real gained entering that discussion especially when it is not my area of expertise at all.

I think I have taken this as far as I can. We can agree on some issues such as promoting better and more educated care by hobbyists, that coral collection likely has minor effect on the reefs-better management can't hurt to better the collection process though, and that fish collection with cyanide is not a good practice. We may part ways on putting out guilt trips to fellow hobbyists, it was said here that this is an unethical hobby, and this is totally wrong IMO. What is that saying---you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar! Make folks feel guilty and they may stay away and you lose them on getting on the reform or responsible care bandwagon. The only reason I spoke up was that I get a bit tired of the rant that this hobby is destroying the reefs and because of this hobby the reefs will be gone in a few years, these are my interpretation and maybe exaggerated, but I think you get my point. If you can't stand the fact that you are responsible directly or indirectly for many deaths of fish for the one that got to your tank alive, then do something personally about it, buy captive bred and don't complain about lack of selection. Right now you can't have both.

I still do not grasp the idea that some folks so firmly believe that this hobby is leading to the destruction of reefs and yet they stay in the hobby, continue to buy animals, and encourage others to do so. Wouldn't the logical solution to these folks be to get into freshwater where you can get a vast array of totally captive bred fish and have no impact on destroying anything?

Anyway, thanks for the discussion and I will go back to lurking.

 

[Len]

I'm glad to have discussed this with you. No offense intended, but you read/infer many things that no one has written. For starters, no one has "rant[ed] that this hobby is destroying the reefs and because of this hobby the reefs will be gone in a few years."

I'm also unclear how the "flies to honey" cliche applies to this situation. Everything has been discussed with grace and civility IMHO. Is it the ideas being discussed that you have problems with? There's no way to sugar-coat them without sacrificing integrity.

I understand your reasoning about captive bred, but you base it on what people should do and not what people actually do. Few buy C.B. for various reasons, and there is no way C.B. could support a fraction of our hobby's demand with its current yield.

::::sounding like a broken record:::: I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty, but I am trying to make everyone more aware and concientious about the decisions they make. Fish do not magically appear in LFS and mail order vendors without direct and observable consequences.

Personally, I face an ethical dilemna when buying wildlife for my amusement. Your mileage may vary and your opinion is as valid as mine. I'd glady give up marine life if I knew this action would have a significant, positive impact. I don't believe it does. So here I am educating and learning through Reefs.org. Perhaps a cop-out excuse, I know, and perhaps it's just me rationalizing/justifying a hobby I deeply love.

 

[Anonymous]

I remember reading somewhere that the estimated wild population of Banggai cardinals was around 1.7 million, and that in one year 700,000 were sold in the US. Has anyone else seen this figure? I can't remember where I saw it, so I'm not providing it as fact or anything.

It's difficult to believe that the hobby is not having a significant impact on species with very small natural ranges such as the Banggai cardinal. Although they are easily captive bred, it doesn't seem like many places actually raise them commercially.

 

[Bone]

I'm surprised some ppl can't see the corelation.

Wild reefs are on the decline.

Reef animals are removed from the wild reef to supply the ornamental trade because we will pay money for them.

:arrow: The ornamental trade damages wild reefs.

Is this not crystal clear?