Inland Reef / Reefs.org Salt Analysis Project
- Thread starter MattM
- Start date
First of all: THANK YOU, Matt and Tom!!!
Couple points:
1) I don't see ANY controversy in Inland Reef Aquaria's effort to organize this test.
2) I strongly believe that only dissolved matter should be subjected to analysis if that is possible (there is ALWAYS some undissolved matter left after dissolving big quantities of even analytical grade salts). We wouldn't care if all heavy metal contaminants stayed in this undissolved residue, would we? We don't add it to our tanks anyway
It would be fantastic, if bioassay similar to Dr. Shimek's be repeated in properly matured ASW (aeration for 24 h, which, by the way, is essential for proper pH balance, and will be necessary for pH comparison of freshly mixed/maturing ASWs; I wouldn't worry much about "unequal" aeration, but rather about aeration omitted altogether).
Going to donation site now
Couple points:
1) I don't see ANY controversy in Inland Reef Aquaria's effort to organize this test.
2) I strongly believe that only dissolved matter should be subjected to analysis if that is possible (there is ALWAYS some undissolved matter left after dissolving big quantities of even analytical grade salts). We wouldn't care if all heavy metal contaminants stayed in this undissolved residue, would we? We don't add it to our tanks anyway
It would be fantastic, if bioassay similar to Dr. Shimek's be repeated in properly matured ASW (aeration for 24 h, which, by the way, is essential for proper pH balance, and will be necessary for pH comparison of freshly mixed/maturing ASWs; I wouldn't worry much about "unequal" aeration, but rather about aeration omitted altogether).
Going to donation site now
Alternative methods of donation:
If you must you can paypal a donation to [email protected] however it's just as easy to use the website.
Checks/Money Orders can be sent Snail Mail to our store.
Inland Reef Aquaria
Salt Project
97 Main ST
Nashua, NH 03060
however that street address will be changing in May when we move to our new location but it will be good through April 30. I'll edit this post with the new address at that time.
If you must you can paypal a donation to [email protected] however it's just as easy to use the website.
Checks/Money Orders can be sent Snail Mail to our store.
Inland Reef Aquaria
Salt Project
97 Main ST
Nashua, NH 03060
however that street address will be changing in May when we move to our new location but it will be good through April 30. I'll edit this post with the new address at that time.
The more I think of it, the more I'm convinced that we should do "urchin larva survival" test first (as in BEFORE we start looking for reasons why they die). If we do all the metal testing and find that ALL artificial salt mixes contain way too much heavy metals in comparison with NSW, what would we prove? That manufacturers of "Bioassay" salt lied about heavy metal content in their product? Who would be surprised?!!
The cause of ASW toxicity (if any) can be, for example, presence of plasticizers used in manufacturing process:
http://www.pfiesteria.org/publicati...inisolation.pdf or something else besides HM...
The cause of ASW toxicity (if any) can be, for example, presence of plasticizers used in manufacturing process:
http://www.pfiesteria.org/publicati...inisolation.pdf or something else besides HM...
Just added $20 to John's donation page.
I want to add my 0.02. While it will be great we learn every bit of trace metals in our salts, there will still be no definitive correlation to the tank mortality rate. Some salts may contain binding agents (intentionally or not) that allow the metals to be easily removed through skimming for example. Others may contain other harmful elements even if the metals are low.
I know this may be difficult to control, but since we are going to take many months to do this test, is it possible to setup up small reef tanks and acutally use different salts and let them go through a controlled mature period under identical conditions, and then test the tank water samples at the end of the period and compare to the original salt mixes? At that point we can even ask Dr. Ron to help test sea urchin larvae in those tanks. Afterall, if we are to verify Dr. Ron's tests, the tests should have some resemblance.
Isn't it more beneficial to know what the salts will do to the reef tanks, than to speculate what they may do even after we spend all the money?
I am sure many vendors will be willing to donate equipment for such arrangement, that will make fund raising easier, may be.
I want to add my 0.02. While it will be great we learn every bit of trace metals in our salts, there will still be no definitive correlation to the tank mortality rate. Some salts may contain binding agents (intentionally or not) that allow the metals to be easily removed through skimming for example. Others may contain other harmful elements even if the metals are low.
I know this may be difficult to control, but since we are going to take many months to do this test, is it possible to setup up small reef tanks and acutally use different salts and let them go through a controlled mature period under identical conditions, and then test the tank water samples at the end of the period and compare to the original salt mixes? At that point we can even ask Dr. Ron to help test sea urchin larvae in those tanks. Afterall, if we are to verify Dr. Ron's tests, the tests should have some resemblance.
Isn't it more beneficial to know what the salts will do to the reef tanks, than to speculate what they may do even after we spend all the money?
I am sure many vendors will be willing to donate equipment for such arrangement, that will make fund raising easier, may be.
<<Exactly! That's the whole point. Let's focus on the effect. Let the manufacturers pay for their own certified analysis if they want to. It's the results that are important. Isn't it?>>
Of course results matter, but I cannot comprehend why anyone would oppose knowing what is in their salt mix. Someone walks up to you with a sheet telling you what's in all the salts before you buy one while you are shopping.. are you going to read the sheet, or are you going to play ostrich and stick your head in a hole in the ground? Maybe you are opposed to the cost, but this is purely by donation.. meaning if you don't care to know what's in the salt.. don't donate. Only people that want to know are going to be out of pocket, so I don't see what the big deal is to you.
Of course results matter, but I cannot comprehend why anyone would oppose knowing what is in their salt mix. Someone walks up to you with a sheet telling you what's in all the salts before you buy one while you are shopping.. are you going to read the sheet, or are you going to play ostrich and stick your head in a hole in the ground? Maybe you are opposed to the cost, but this is purely by donation.. meaning if you don't care to know what's in the salt.. don't donate. Only people that want to know are going to be out of pocket, so I don't see what the big deal is to you.
I would make only two suggestions:
1. Thoroughly MIX the entire contents of each salt mix before using. Stuff may have settled during shipping.
2. Use a sample of Catalina water and water from the East coast so that hobbyists out this way can know just how safe it is to use, and use NSW from either the Pacific and Atlantic.
-Alfred
1. Thoroughly MIX the entire contents of each salt mix before using. Stuff may have settled during shipping.
2. Use a sample of Catalina water and water from the East coast so that hobbyists out this way can know just how safe it is to use, and use NSW from either the Pacific and Atlantic.
-Alfred
Hey Matt: I am wondering if you can get our sponsers to kick in some $$ for this. Nothing would imporve thier sales for reef salt if they could put in there , Truley tested by a non interedt third party and paid for by reef hobbiest, No manufacture donations were accepted. I feel as soon as i see a particular manufactor pay for "independent testing" the results are of no value. Every company wants to turn a profit and you dont make a profit by saying you customers have inferior products. If these test are paid for my any salt prodcuing companies. You can bet i will pretty much discount the results as skewed and invalid.
JeremyR":zmuv7mbl said:
Certainly I like to know every metal in every salt known to man, but We'd rather our money used in a more meaningful way: what will be the actual effects of using different salts in our tanks. I also believe that only the salts that are commonly used should be tested first.
I'll donate more if tests are more of my liking
but I certainly do not oppose the current plan.JohnL":2xgfikgs said:
And would anyone believe these analyses if the manufacturers flipped the bill to test their own salt? Remember the Combisan testing that both Dr. Shimek and Inland Reef performed independent of one another?
http://www.inlandreef.com/analysis.html
That pretty much proved to me that this type of test is merited considering the manufacturer's data sheets were used to compare a couple of the salts in question. Also, remember that salt formulations change over time due to the manufacturer reformulating with different raw materials (due to cost, new suppliers, etc). The 1999 study done by Atkinson and Bingman may not accurately reflect the current formulated products any longer.
I definitely believe this is the first step. I'm completely open to the fact that certain salt mixes may very well have elevated concentrations of certain elements, but I really feel that an independent test must be done to confirm this. After this test is done, then I believe people can go on to the next step, which is to attempt to validate Dr. Shimek's results. We can't put the cart before the horse.
Shane
But what if our test results validate the salt analyses results Dr. Ron used in his article, then what? Nothing will change because those don't believe the study was conclusive will still think so.
If our tests dispute the data used in Dr. Ron's study, then what? His study will still be valid in terms of sea urchin larvae survival rates in freshly mixes saltwater. Because what this plan you have will not prove or disprove Dr. Ron's study results.
Why not just follow Dr. Ron's conclusion and save us the trouble?
If our tests dispute the data used in Dr. Ron's study, then what? His study will still be valid in terms of sea urchin larvae survival rates in freshly mixes saltwater. Because what this plan you have will not prove or disprove Dr. Ron's study results.
Why not just follow Dr. Ron's conclusion and save us the trouble?
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