Inland Reef / Reefs.org Salt Analysis Project
- Thread starter MattM
- Start date
MattM":3f9xqt46 said:
I agree. So let's test IO and Coralife and the other two Ron used. I mean if we raise $14K great but let's try and actually do something. We could always test the other brands later. We could also put the pressure on the manufacturers to pay for their own sample to be tested at a lab we can trust.
MattM":1rloe845 said:
We are the ones who proposed doing this test and will carry it out. We have done similar analyses in the past on our own nickel, but the cost of this one means that Reefs.org is helping to get the word out about funding it. Also, the results will probably be published here first.
If you like, think of it as our project that Reefs.org has been kind enough to help out with, not the other way around. I.e. Reefs.org did not think of this and then ask one of their sponsors to assist.
Personally, I only want to sell the best products in our store. Dr. Shimek's tests have planted seeds of doubt about salt mixes, but I want, detailed, concrete, repeatable analysis and confirmation before I follow any new idea. I have seen the "bandwagon" in this hobby make too many U-turns for me to be very quick to jump on it.
That's great Matt. Reef Central supports this idea and has agreed to match donations made on our site dollar for dollar up to $500. I think we should test the four salts Ron used to confirm the elements and then spend any additional funds looking into the impact they are having to our animals. Kudos to you for starting this nobel idea!
Matt,MattM":2c91ufz3 said:
I guess all I can say from here is to heed Sanjay's advice. Make sure that a marine chemist or two has looked over the study and validates the methods being used.
I am a biologist and not a chemist, but I understand the importance of scientific method. To me it seems more important to compare ASW to NSW as water rather than their consitituents, but I will defer to the expert advice you receive from a marine chemist.
MattM":1c2uz4hd said:
You know... I just re-read this and I must admit it is a bit disturbing. It seems self serving, imo. Is this some kind of RDO sponsor promo or an attempt at really learning something useful? Are you looking for support from other web sites?. Liquid said you were. If not, then let me know. If so, then the above policy seems unfair and self-serving to me.
you can save yourself a whole lot of time and effort by just endorsing TROPIC MARIN as the best all around synthetic sea salt mix....i have been using it since 1976 it is the standard of consistency and closest to nsw...when i do as much as a 25% water change on my reef tank the corals don't even flinch...it's as if i am adding back the same water...and the day following the water change ...corals expand and look better than ever...i use r/o di water which produces 18 megaohm source water....
trust me after you spend all this $ you will come to the same conclusion..also the salt dr shimek recommended as being good....the one from cali...-marine bio elements or whatever...i have had this "best salt" discussion with ken howery of poly bio marine for years and he mentions tropic marin and the cali salt as the 2 best...and he makes thousand of gallons of synthetic sea salt per year to standardize his poly filters....so take it from the pros !!!!!
trust me after you spend all this $ you will come to the same conclusion..also the salt dr shimek recommended as being good....the one from cali...-marine bio elements or whatever...i have had this "best salt" discussion with ken howery of poly bio marine for years and he mentions tropic marin and the cali salt as the 2 best...and he makes thousand of gallons of synthetic sea salt per year to standardize his poly filters....so take it from the pros !!!!!
"While waiting for the lab, let the liquid samples stand for a number of days and test pH periodically during the wait period. We can not aerate the samples, as it would be difficult to provide aeration in a manner that is identical for each sample."
Why not repeat the bio-assay portion of Dr. Ron's test with this water? That way you have concrete analysis of the salt mixes and the specific effects each has on the larvae.
Why not repeat the bio-assay portion of Dr. Ron's test with this water? That way you have concrete analysis of the salt mixes and the specific effects each has on the larvae.
JohnL,
I know sometimes it seems like sponsors can have ulterior motives on many things, but this is just one of a long history of projects like this that inland reef has taken on. They aren't a manufacturer or wholesaler of any of the products that have been tested but essentially a small LFS in the Northeast that sells a small amount of drygoods online. All of the projects that have been done have been more along the lines of the consumer protection testing that the local TV stations might do for mainstream consumer goods.
I'm sure others can help me with the list but some of the items I can remember are:
Comparison of Test Kits - Ease of Use, Accuracy, Cost, Etc.
Microscopic Pics of various items - DT's Phytoplankton, ESV's Dried Phytoplankton, Miracle Mud, etc.
Some composition analysis - Combisan & Miracle Mud
I'm sure these are just the tip of the iceberg. I tried to do a search on some of these but couldn't find them. Some are old enough to have been several bb software versions ago. It would be nice to get these all together in one place.
Previously they have funded these projects out of their own pockets with no requests for financial assistance. This is by far the largest project they have taken on and I think that is why they are asking for help from the boards. I think it is great that RC and I know several other boards are pitching in donations to help with this.
I agree with you on for sure getting the 4 salts that were in Ron's study tested first, I'm sure there will be some more decisions on which salts to test, etc., as they get farther along on the donations.
Oh well, FWIW, Nathan
I know sometimes it seems like sponsors can have ulterior motives on many things, but this is just one of a long history of projects like this that inland reef has taken on. They aren't a manufacturer or wholesaler of any of the products that have been tested but essentially a small LFS in the Northeast that sells a small amount of drygoods online. All of the projects that have been done have been more along the lines of the consumer protection testing that the local TV stations might do for mainstream consumer goods.
I'm sure others can help me with the list but some of the items I can remember are:
Comparison of Test Kits - Ease of Use, Accuracy, Cost, Etc.
Microscopic Pics of various items - DT's Phytoplankton, ESV's Dried Phytoplankton, Miracle Mud, etc.
Some composition analysis - Combisan & Miracle Mud
I'm sure these are just the tip of the iceberg. I tried to do a search on some of these but couldn't find them. Some are old enough to have been several bb software versions ago. It would be nice to get these all together in one place.
Previously they have funded these projects out of their own pockets with no requests for financial assistance. This is by far the largest project they have taken on and I think that is why they are asking for help from the boards. I think it is great that RC and I know several other boards are pitching in donations to help with this.
I agree with you on for sure getting the 4 salts that were in Ron's study tested first, I'm sure there will be some more decisions on which salts to test, etc., as they get farther along on the donations.
Oh well, FWIW, Nathan
JohnL":1ybh932q said:
John -
Just to set the record straight, I proposed that we do this project and Shane Graber (liquid) offered the assistance of Reefs.org. I did not ask for help. He then started enlisting the help of other boards - which I greatly appreciate, but again, it was his idea - not mine. The original thread is here - http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=27020.
You make a good point about the number of salts. If the funding falls short we will plan to test as many as possible, starting with the four salts Ron used and then going in popularity order. Although the Fritz salt intruiges me - it is the only one that seems to be truly unique - so we will probably fudge the popularity a bit to make sure that one is included.
Nathan -
All your comments are graciously appreciated!
consigliere -
We like Tropic Marin too - it's the main salt we use in the store. However, I'm willing to be proved a fool by testing it in a fair and unbiased manner with the other salts.
We've all had unexplaind mortalities and other problems in our tanks. If it turns out that the cause could be levels of elements we never expected to be in our salt mixes, why not investigate just to make sure.
We like Tropic Marin too - it's the main salt we use in the store. However, I'm willing to be proved a fool by testing it in a fair and unbiased manner with the other salts.
We've all had unexplaind mortalities and other problems in our tanks. If it turns out that the cause could be levels of elements we never expected to be in our salt mixes, why not investigate just to make sure.
Yes we could just test the four salts indicated in the article - and/or some of the more mainstream salts - however if we just did that then there will be someone who will complain that their salt is better but wasn't tested etc I'm sure you can see where it would go and it would leave doubt over the whole project - however I probably won't get too twisted if "Bob's Sea Salt" or something was left out.
We are trying to accomplish a rather definitive study of the salts most aquarists are likely to see for sale and we are open to and are waiting for suggestions and/or input from some of the respected reef chemists out there.
Obtaining a water sample from South FL or the Caribbean would likely be doable. Obtaining a sample from the South Pacific may be cost prohibitive unless we can get Mary @ MSI or one of the other LA importers could get one included in a shipment (however it would have to be a virgin source and NOT bag water from an animal shipment).
We are trying to accomplish a rather definitive study of the salts most aquarists are likely to see for sale and we are open to and are waiting for suggestions and/or input from some of the respected reef chemists out there.
Obtaining a water sample from South FL or the Caribbean would likely be doable. Obtaining a sample from the South Pacific may be cost prohibitive unless we can get Mary @ MSI or one of the other LA importers could get one included in a shipment (however it would have to be a virgin source and NOT bag water from an animal shipment).
Sounds like a good project.
I work at an environmental laboratory and I think you ought to contact one of the project managers here and they might be able to beat the price you have been quoted.
Here's a link to the metals product catalog
http://www.gel.net/pdf/Metals-an.pdf
And here is the email address for a point of contact to initially get things going if you are interested.
Carey J. Bocklet - Chief Operating Officer, General Engineering Laboratories, LLC, [email protected] 843-556-8171 ext. 4414
I work at an environmental laboratory and I think you ought to contact one of the project managers here and they might be able to beat the price you have been quoted.
Here's a link to the metals product catalog
http://www.gel.net/pdf/Metals-an.pdf
And here is the email address for a point of contact to initially get things going if you are interested.
Carey J. Bocklet - Chief Operating Officer, General Engineering Laboratories, LLC, [email protected] 843-556-8171 ext. 4414
You have in yoru list the crystal seas meine mix, There are 2 versins though the regular and the bio assay. I would be more interested in teh bio assay as im sure most would as it does not contain a dechlorinator and since most peopel have an RO/DI we dont need it. Also the de-clor might throw off the results.
Also at 280 bucks a test why not remove some of the duplicate salts like the ones from aquacraft and the IO/Reefcrystals/Kent mixes at least for now and save soem money, if people are willing after that then do a second part and get the duplicate salts you missed in teh first test.
As far as collecting NSW, other then getting it form the guy who has the store with a pipe into to the ocean how do you plan on collecting uncontaminated samples. There is a lot of pollution out there. besides tons of tests have alsread analyzed NSW do you really need to do it again?
Also at 280 bucks a test why not remove some of the duplicate salts like the ones from aquacraft and the IO/Reefcrystals/Kent mixes at least for now and save soem money, if people are willing after that then do a second part and get the duplicate salts you missed in teh first test.
As far as collecting NSW, other then getting it form the guy who has the store with a pipe into to the ocean how do you plan on collecting uncontaminated samples. There is a lot of pollution out there. besides tons of tests have alsread analyzed NSW do you really need to do it again?
I just talked to one of our Project Managers here and she told me that a test for ICP-MS would be around $200 and for the quantity of samples you are talking about a discount would most likely be appilied. She said lately we have been offering big discounts to steal business from other labs.
I think you should take this very seriously and contact the person I referenced in the earlier post and I am sure we could save you some $$$ on this project!
Alan Drehmel
I think you should take this very seriously and contact the person I referenced in the earlier post and I am sure we could save you some $$$ on this project!
Alan Drehmel
I am willing to raffle off an AquaController Combo2, at $10.00 a ticket. I have a web-page ready to be published if this is approved by the Admins.
I will provide reefs.org with an itemized report of all ticket purchasers, the winner will be determined by reefs.org admins, so I will remove myself from the equation, except for providing the prize.
Let me know
Doug
[email protected]
I will provide reefs.org with an itemized report of all ticket purchasers, the winner will be determined by reefs.org admins, so I will remove myself from the equation, except for providing the prize.
Let me know
Doug
[email protected]
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