Inland Reef / Reefs.org Salt Analysis Project

[liquid]

Feel free to post this whereever you feel it is pertinent.

Publishing: See point #8 in MattM's original post.

Shane

 

[ATJ]

6. Send out samples of the dry salt to Northern Analytical Labs (the same people we used for Miracle Mud and Combi-San testing) for an Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry (ICPMS) test. This test will give elemental quantities for Lithium through Uranium down to the part-per-trillion range with a 1% accuracy. We will either have to evaporate the NSW samples, or check to see if the lab can get comparable results with a liquid sample.

Why are the samples being assayed dry? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to mix them up and then get the water assayed? How can they be sure that the samples are well mixes and all the various salts are in the right concentrations - which would also be a problem with mixing it, but it will average out a lot more.

How will they make sense of the quatities of elements like N and C which form many different compounds?

Surely it is of more value comparing mixed ASW to NSW.

Evaporating NSW will cause changes in quantites of various elements, particularly C and O. The amount of heat required to get rid of all the water will drive out CO2 from carbonate and organic matter.

 

[sanjay]

I think this would be a very worthwhile effort.

Given the cost of the effort, it may be a one shot chance to get it all done right. I would strongly suggest involving some of the reef chemists (Bingman, Randal Farley-Holmes, Atkins, Habib, etc) upfront and getting all thier input into how these tests should be done.

For the little that I know of salt chemistry, I am not 100% sure that ICP is the best way to go. There are too may interferences due to NaCl, that may cause problems with the low levels of trace elements. Talk to all the experts, get a good concensus on what is the best way to do this. Otherwise you will waste a lot of good effort and end up with a lot of bandwidth on people arguing about the results !!

sanjay.

 

[StevenPro]

I just wanted to add Omega Sea to your list of brands to test.

 

[Anonymous]

What is the current tally of donations? And what will happen to the donations if enough isn't collected to cover the tests?

We'll post the totals here on a weekly basis. To Start we currently are at $280 for the past 24 hours.

In order to get different lot numbers on the salt samples, it will take many months before we can start testing. We expect that by that time, the funding will be all lined up.

However, if that doesn't happen, donations will be refunded - either with a check or store credit (your choice) in order to avoid additional credit card fees on our side (which are going to cost us several hundred dollars anyway).

For the little that I know of salt chemistry, I am not 100% sure that ICP is the best way to go.

I have it from the lab that the major elements like Na and Cl will be approximate (requires a different calibration), but that they will not interfere with the trace measurements. I'm sure that more chemically savvy Reefs.org members will see this eventually and comment. As mentioned above, it will be a while before the testing starts, so we have plenty of time to make sure we do it right.

Why are the samples being assayed dry? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to mix them up and then get the water assayed? How can they be sure that the samples are well mixes and all the various salts are in the right concentrations - which would also be a problem with mixing it, but it will average out a lot more.

How will they make sense of the quatities of elements like N and C which form many different compounds?

Surely it is of more value comparing mixed ASW to NSW.

Evaporating NSW will cause changes in quantites of various elements, particularly C and O. The amount of heat required to get rid of all the water will drive out CO2 from carbonate and organic matter.

ICPMS is an elemental analysis - the sample prep and test procudure reduces all componds to their constituent elements. The sample is burned to a plasma and the resulting spectrum is measured.

A liquid sample would be evaporated in this process anyway. Although the comounds may change when the NSW sample is evaporated, the elements are a constant. Oxygen and organics are burned off, and so are not measured.

 

[Anonymous]

I just wanted to add Omega Sea to your list of brands to test.

Do you have a manufacturer's web site for this salt? We've seen it, but I'm not sure who makes it.

 

[ATJ]

ICPMS is an elemental analysis - the sample prep and test procudure reduces all componds to their constituent elements. The sample is burned to a plasma and the resulting spectrum is measured.

A liquid sample would be evaporated in this process anyway. Although the comounds may change when the NSW sample is evaporated, the elements are a constant. Oxygen and organics are burned off, and so are not measured.

Are you saying that the ICPMS of the synthetic salts would show no carbon or oxygen?

The value of seawater (ASW or NSW) to the organisms we keep is not so much the elements that are contained in the water, but the compounds. For example, carbon as an element is bascially useless, but when combined with oxygen (and hydrogen) we get carbonate and bicarbonate which has useful chemical properties. Similarly, nitrogen can be combine with hydrogen or oxygen as inorganic compounds which may be toxic (ammonia/nitrite) or not.

I don't understand why you wouldn't do regular sewater assays on the ASW to see how much like NSW it is.

 

[StevenPro]

I just wanted to add Omega Sea to your list of brands to test.

Do you have a manufacturer's web site for this salt? We've seen it, but I'm not sure who makes it.

It is the same people that make the Omega One brand of fish foods. I don't have a website for them, but you should be able to find their products easily enough.

 

[Anonymous]

It is the same people that make the Omega One brand of fish foods. I don't have a website for them, but you should be able to find their products easily enough.

Okay - we thought so, but they don't discuss their salt on their website nor have I seen any product literature on the salt and we are a dealer 8O We'll add them to the list.

 

[JohnL]

Reef Central is willing to do anything that we can to help this project. Just let me know if you need anything.

 

[chriss]

We'll post the totals here on a weekly basis. To Start we currently are at $280 for the past 24 hours.

donations will be refunded - either with a check or store credit (your choice)

That sounds fair. I will donate what I can this weekend and will probably donate more as it becomes available. I am really looking forward to seeing the test results

Chris

 

[jmlesq]

I just donated $10. I'd like to see the Fritz salt tested: http://www.fritzpet.com/pro_salts_main.html

Thanks for doing this. Much needed.

John

 

[JohnL]

Is there a PayPal address we can use to send donations?

 

[Dman]

I have taken the liberty of posting a link to this thread on one of the Canadian boards
http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1852

[/url]

 

[liquid]

Is there a PayPal address we can use to send donations?

I guess I am confused why there needs to be a PayPal address when Matt and Tom already have a donation page setup on their website? Seems redundant to me.

Shane

 

[wasabi]

ALLRIGHT GET THE RAFFLES GOING. i would have given a donation but the compulsive gambler in me wont let me, knowing there will be a raffle going on.

 

[MattM]

Are you saying that the ICPMS of the synthetic salts would show no carbon or oxygen?

That is correct.

The elements normally measured in ICPMS are:

Aluminum
Antimony
Arsenic
Barium
Beryllium
Bismuth
Boron
Bromine
Cadmium
Calcium
Cerium
Cesium
Chromium
Chloride
Cobalt
Copper
Dysprosium
Erbium
Europium
Fluorine
Gadolinium
Gallium
Germanium
Gold
Hafnium
Holmium
Indium
Iodine
Iridium
Iron
Lanthanum
Lead
Lithium
Lutetium
Magnesium
Manganese
Mercury
Molybdenum
Neodymium
Nickel
Niobium
Osmium
Palladium
Phosphorus
Platinum
Potassium
Praseodymium
Rhodium
Rubidium
Ruthenium
Rhenium
Samarium
Scandium
Selenium
Silicon
Silver
Sodium
Strontium
Sulfur
Tantalum
Tellurium
Terbium
Thallium
Thorium
Thulium
Tin
Titanium
Tungsten
Uranium
Vanadium
Ytterbium
Yttrium
Zinc
Zirconium

The value of seawater (ASW or NSW) to the organisms we keep is not so much the elements that are contained in the water, but the compounds. For example, carbon as an element is bascially useless, but when combined with oxygen (and hydrogen) we get carbonate and bicarbonate which has useful chemical properties. Similarly, nitrogen can be combine with hydrogen or oxygen as inorganic compounds which may be toxic (ammonia/nitrite) or not.

These compounds are largely created and consumed by the chemical and biological processes in your tank. Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide, Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, Carbonate, Bicarbonate, etc. are all in constant flux. A little more or less of any of these in freshly mixed salt will have little or no effect -- it will change as soon as you add it to your tank.

However, excess heavy metals or boosted levels of trace elements that are largely not metabolized can have a major toxic effect. This is the primary hypothesis of Dr. Shimek's study. Please read it if you have not already. It's the first link in the first post of this thread.

 

[JohnL]

The value of seawater (ASW or NSW) to the organisms we keep is not so much the elements that are contained in the water, but the compounds. For example, carbon as an element is bascially useless, but when combined with oxygen (and hydrogen) we get carbonate and bicarbonate which has useful chemical properties. Similarly, nitrogen can be combine with hydrogen or oxygen as inorganic compounds which may be toxic (ammonia/nitrite) or not.

I don't understand why you wouldn't do regular sewater assays on the ASW to see how much like NSW it is.

Andrew is RIGHT ON! We should be furthering the tests done by Ron which go to the effect of the elements, not repeating what has already been done by Craig Bingman years ago which confirms the elements are there.

 

[JohnL]

Alos, I'm a little curious why one of your sponsors is associated with this project. What is their role going to be?

 

[MattM]

We should be furthering the tests done by Ron which go to the effect of the elements, not repeating what has already been done by Craig Bingman years ago which confirms the elements are there.

Actually that's not at all what Adrew said, but in any case...

1) Dr. Shimek's tests assert that two salts are non-toxic.

2) These two salts were not included in Atkinson and Bingman's tests. Dr. Shimek used the manufacturer's advertising literature to state the elemental content of these salts.

3) Our previous experience with Combi-San has led us not to take any manufacturer's word for the contents of their product (a test that Dr. Shimek was also involved with, and we confirmed, so it puzzles me why he would take these salt manufacturer's word)

4) An analysis of just these two salts is useless without comparison to others using identical test procedures.

Alos, I'm a little curious why one of your sponsors is associated with this project. What is their role going to be?

We are the ones who proposed doing this test and will carry it out. We have done similar analyses in the past on our own nickel, but the cost of this one means that Reefs.org is helping to get the word out about funding it. Also, the results will probably be published here first.

If you like, think of it as our project that Reefs.org has been kind enough to help out with, not the other way around. I.e. Reefs.org did not think of this and then ask one of their sponsors to assist.

Personally, I only want to sell the best products in our store. Dr. Shimek's tests have planted seeds of doubt about salt mixes, but I want, detailed, concrete, repeatable analysis and confirmation before I follow any new idea. I have seen the "bandwagon" in this hobby make too many U-turns for me to be very quick to jump on it.