How much would you pay?

[ChrisRD]

Cortez marine/DBM/MaryHM/Flameangel:

Just want to say that I know it must get exasperating at times (I can "hear" it in some of the posts), but some of us ARE listening.

Thanks for all the factual information you bring to the board.

 

[dizzy]

Wow,

This whole conversation amazes me. First I thought everyone knew cyanide was still a major problem in Indo and Philippines and possibly other countries. I am also amazed as a retailer that All Seas, Sea Dwelling Creature, ERI, and Quality Marine would all sell to some hobbiest walking in off the streets. I thought there was still something of a wholesale distribution chain in place.

I do have to admit that after talking to some other people from the L.A. area at MACNA that it is indeed true. The wholesalers, by and large appear to be selling to retailers and competeing with them at the same time. No damn wonder fish are so cheap in the L.A. stores. This industry is breaking all the rules.

 

[GLD]

In the face of no nets to divers begging for a means to catch fish without cyanide, and wholesalers retailing in L.A., maybe it is time for conscientous hobbyists to align with one wholesaler who aligns directly with AND trains/certifies one or more collection communities.

As a hobbyist, I am VERY interested in funding and being a part of such a vertical chain. Steve, Mary, and other conscientous importers, are you interested in anchoring the other end of the chain?

Imagine this:

The hobbyist group actually supports and funds sustainable collection methods implemented by Steve, Mary and others. This vests the hobbyist in proper collection, and funds and supports proper collection. In essence, the hobbyist group "Adopts-The-Reef" that is being harvested in a SUSTAINABLE fashion by Steve, Mary et. al.

Take it to the next level ... by adopting a reef(s), the hobbyist group can follow the training implemented by Steve et.al. at that site. This will involve the hobbyist to a greater extent in the entire collection process, eliminating some of the disconnect reflected in some of the recent replys to my original post. To keep the money flowing to Steve, Mary, et.al., the hobbyist group could even travel to "their" reef to observe, spend money and learn more.

Once this process is started, different acquarium clubs, different jr. high science classes, different ... each could "Adopt A Reef". Each year, the most successful "Adopted Reef" could be recognized at some public forum like MACNA, National Geographic etc etc etc.

If the issue of sustainable collection has been wrestled with for years with no resolution, the only solution is to pursue a different tack.

Connect the hobbyist directly to the source, with the hobbyist only able to buy from that source thru the local lfs of their choice (which encourages that lfs to buy additional livestock from the adopted reef etc.

Let's go. I am ready. Are you?

Note: By mentioning Steve and Mary by name, I am not suggesting that they have condoned or agreed to participate in such a concept. I have not talked to them, nor do I know them. They never even have heard of "GLD" until they posted to this thread. But from their responses, it seems that they or others like them would be ideal canidates at the training/certification/collection and importation end of the Adopt-A-Reef chain.

 

[turtlespd]

Dbm.

I do dislike purchasing purchasing fish from the LFS beacause i dont know the sources. The price for captive raised and wild are sometimes double in some stores. The price for common doesnt bother me on bit. I can surely afford 15-50 dollar a fish. My major concern is will my fish live! I get some special fish from time to time for some wacko friends that are insane reefers. The LFS cannot provide me with any guarentee nor can they even get me the certain fish. Thats my condern. 20 buks for a clown..i wanna see how many reefers will pay that much for a clown that is sold eveywhere for 8-15 bucks. If i had the choice i would look at the fish and see what is better. Im not a poor person and not thilthy rich but i choose things for quality and if i can get them at a better source i would, wouldnt you? I am a embarrasement to the hobby cause i tell th truth..like always i get flamed cause of it. DBM i know damn sure you arent mr goodie two shoes ..and since you are the 5% of this community who feels they will buy all captive raised animals wait til you expose them to a wild diesease..they will die! Another cpative defect. If breeders can breed the fish we want there wont be a demade for wild caught fish..this will slow down the demand for fish outside this world..sure i think many people will starve but we will save the reefs!!!! Till then i wont hold my breath purchasing captive grown.

Dizzy,

I am not a hobbies who walks off the streets. lol although it may seem like it im really not. I have top buisness licences two DBA and one import export..is that enough? sorry i didnt post my credentials. I also stated that cycanide areas are indo and pillipine areas..didint i? "I must be dizzy" Speaking with a few reefers from LA area at macna and the story they are giving is somewhat true. Few wholesalers who i havent purchased squat from because simply the health of the fish. They sell open to the public you are correct but the prices are not exactlly wholesaler more like alittle below retail to steal th LFS business..oh the old mighty DOLLA.. The Major chains are pretty strict if you ask me.

Cortez marine,

I second that.

GLD,

I think you of all people are drifting in the right direction and now no more talking the talk but walking the walk., Unfortunatley i only see it as temporary peace of mind. Your idea will work but witout assistance from huge companys to promote this act it will be a hard task at hand.

SBC,

Is there a real differnce from buygin fish for pleasure and not for sale? The fish may be cayanice caugght? that will only prmote the sale or capture of cayanide fish.

My attitude, yes is alittle straight forward but true at that. I gotta work for a living to support my habits. You have the luxury of being in yoru hobby well unles you are not a hobbiest. Anyways, you can care about reefs more than anyone here because its your lifestyle. Your income comes from importing fish you must care. If you were a Lawyer i highly doubt you will care as much but i cant be wrong..dont like to judge anyone.

It must be nice to have a Caribean biotope tank..i really dont know who to blame that one on..HObbiest who didnt know how to care for the fraggil coral or Global warming which are also humans.. I respect the fact you gotten your permits to gather from such site and trying to learn from the species to try to help them. If i tried to do that i would be out of house and home. If its me or the reef..the reef gotta go. Im sure 100% of eveyone here will say the same..

Cayanide...its must be a horrible chemical to cause all these people all this drama. I only tell others what i have been told by wholesalers. I also wont guearentee the 10 dollar fish they purchase isnt either. I am not the one making the claims on this board about the cyinide not beign a issue..check out the thread on http://reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showth ... did=117085
Go flame a few of the wholesalers on that thread. They happen to mention the same thing i said.

I am not helpless but check out how many booths did you see at Macna about saving the reefs? Im sure it was out numbered by the number of wild species booths. You want to sit here and flame me but the real proble are those guys. I dont import them they do. The issue should be adressed more and i have seen some progress...but untill the captive prices goes down i dont see anyone purchasing them anytime soon. Like i said ," where are all the programs out there to save the reefs or even promote captive raised" Im not helpless just without a resource. The sales are proof that people dont care as much as others on this board a about saving a reef. The sales were expected to be higher than those of wild caught species but it was the opposite, the captive raised fish didnt sell to well and still sit in the shelves today. This kind of demand i just telling the wholesalers bring in more cheap fish.

Paul

 

[john f]

I'm telling you...................


What we need is a DIRECT to consumer source of true net caught animals.

Then the market for net caughts will expand.

Get ready.........This will hurt a bit..............

Steve and Mary may have something good for THEMSELVES but the way they do business does not further the net caught movement. They have been talking the same jive for years and getting nowhere. They may have carved out a niche for their businesses, but the practice of cyanide collecting still goes on strong.
Hobbiests are still held captive by their LFS. If the LFS owner has Pauls attitude............................. :roll: 8O :evil:



John

 

[MaryHM]

John,

How would having a direct line to hobbyists further the net caught movement? Turtlespd may be frustrating to listen to because of his comments, but he's the only hobbyist I've seen on these boards with the guts to say what 90% of the hobby thinks. Not that I'm condoning it by any means- I think it's dangerous and irresponsible to say that cyanide isn't a problem- but he does speak for the vast majority of hobbyists. So given that turtle's attitude is the prevalent one, how does providing a direct line to hobbyists further the net caught movement? Convince me- I'm listening.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Turtlespd:

My attitude, yes is alittle straight forward but true at that. I gotta work for a living to support my habits. You have the luxury of being in yoru hobby well unles you are not a hobbiest. Anyways, you can care about reefs more than anyone here because its your lifestyle. Your income comes from importing fish you must care. If you were a Lawyer i highly doubt you will care as much but i cant be wrong..dont like to judge anyone.

-Paul, I am a hobbyist only, I am not employed by the industry in any way.

It must be nice to have a Caribean biotope tank..i really dont know who to blame that one on..HObbiest who didnt know how to care for the fraggil coral or Global warming which are also humans.. I respect the fact you gotten your permits to gather from such site and trying to learn from the species to try to help them. If i tried to do that i would be out of house and home. If its me or the reef..the reef gotta go. Im sure 100% of eveyone here will say the same..

-Paul, sorry but I don't have a clue what point you are trying to make here. What do you mean when you say, "If i tried to do that i would be out of house and home. If its me or the reef..the reef gotta go. Im sure 100% of eveyone here will say the same.."?

Cayanide...its must be a horrible chemical to cause all these people all this drama. I only tell others what i have been told by wholesalers. I also wont guearentee the 10 dollar fish they purchase isnt either. I am not the one making the claims on this board about the cyinide not beign a issue..check out the thread on http://reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showth ... did=117085
Go flame a few of the wholesalers on that thread. They happen to mention the same thing i said.

-Paul, I have been following that thread and participating in it but do not recall the wholesalers saying the same thing as you have been saying. Could you give us the board names of the wholesalers that you are referring to on that thread?

I am not helpless but check out how many booths did you see at Macna about saving the reefs? Im sure it was out numbered by the number of wild species booths. You want to sit here and flame me but the real proble are those guys. I dont import them they do. The issue should be adressed more and i have seen some progress...but untill the captive prices goes down i dont see anyone purchasing them anytime soon. Like i said ," where are all the programs out there to save the reefs or even promote captive raised" Im not helpless just without a resource. The sales are proof that people dont care as much as others on this board a about saving a reef. The sales were expected to be higher than those of wild caught species but it was the opposite, the captive raised fish didnt sell to well and still sit in the shelves today. This kind of demand i just telling the wholesalers bring in more cheap fish.

-Do you see where you are once again trying to point the finger at anyone other than yourself Paul? You are using excusses to support your purchasing of fish from retailers (wholesalers?) who sell cyanide captured fish. Give this some thought, if the hobbyist were to stop purchasing any marine animals other than net caught, then net caught is all that he would get. If the hobbyist decided that they would not participate in MACNA unless there was a certain amount of space dedicated to this issue, then thats what he would get, or there wouldn't be a MACNA. The hobbyist has the ultimate responsibility to govern this hobby, it lies squarely in our laps. We can blame others untill the cows come home, but in the end it is us that drives this industry.
If the hobbyist continues to allow price to be the driving force, then you can bet that this hobbies days are numbered. s
Steve

 

[turtlespd]

Spc,

Im sorry i got you confused with another hobbiest. As for the RC thread if you read it carefully they state they try not to purchsae from areas such as indo pacifice and so on. They do not directly say we dont purchase them but do state , try to stay away. I wish i was alittle computer literate so i can quote eveyone also but my comp skill arent to great....

I dont think there is a possiblity to purchase only net caught. No one else supplys fish that i know of. Where is this guarentee at? My sources have proven to me several times by giving me quality fish and you guys bash them. My attitude is all eveyone complains about..great! So um, can you get me a captive bread Tang? NO!!!!!!!! can you guarentee me a net caught? NO!! Can you introduce me to someone who will sell me a net caught? NO!! we have no control..i would like to sit back like you folks and tell other to not buy cayanide fish blah blah but they have no choice!!!! are you reading this..no choice!!!! From what understand fishes enter LAX and then repact and distributed to other places around the US..so is there someone else i dotn know about that gets really nice net caught fish? you guys have been flaming me about my mistakes, judgemets, attitude, and resorces yet not one has givent me a answer on where can i LOOK??????????????

This hobby is all messed up..even if i said ok..i will from now on buy all captive raise..i will have like 4 fishes in my tank and i will dislike evey single on of them...if i do recall we are in this hobby because we like to take pleasure in viewing exotice creatures..there isnt anything exotic to me when i see a pair of clowns..i have simply grew out of the fasination. May i ask what eveyone tanks who is flaming me looks like..i imagine some of those fish are not of captive resorces ..some of the cleaning crew..rocks and so on are broken off the reefs ...

Mary..

Will you be attending MASLAC? I think i have heard you introduce your self once? im not sure..i would really like to talk to you abou tthis in person..i honestly do no see any way to get waht most reefers want without destroying the reef.

I apologize for my attitude but you guys must be as frustrated as i am..

P.s LFS are uneducated but there attitude or mentality changes when food needs to be put on the table.. would you?

Paul

 

[SPC]

Paul, have you looked into purchasing tank raised/reared fish from this site:http://www.inlandaquatics.com/ Please take a look if you haven't already, they have a pretty large selection.

As for the RC thread if you read it carefully they state they try not to purchsae from areas such as indo pacifice and so on. They do not directly say we dont purchase them but do state , try to stay away.

-I agree with that, try is the key word here. I can't think of anyone who would say other wise.

I dont think there is a possiblity to purchase only net caught.

Cortez Marine captures only with a net. Mary only imports fish that are net caught, but of course this means that you will not get to select from all the possible species in the world. It is my contention that we must make sacrifices if we wish for things to change. If you want your pick of all possible species, then you must realize that some of these are notorious for being captured with cyanide. Are you willing to rule out these fish, or will you buy them regardless of the consequences?
Steve

 

[ChrisRD]

The hobbyist has the ultimate responsibility to govern this hobby, it lies squarely in our laps. We can blame others untill the cows come home, but in the end it is us that drives this industry.

I agree 100% Steve.

but of course this means that you will not get to select from all the possible species in the world. It is my contention that we must make sacrifices if we wish for things to change.

Excellent point.

 

[john f]

"Convince me- I'm listening"

OK..........

You see, Pauls' attitude is a lazy one. Why work and ask hard questions of suppliers in order to get your fish? Like it or not people WILL do the easy thing most of the time, even if it is not the right thing.
That's why it's critical to have an EASY way for hobbiests to buy net caught fish. If all they have to do is order online or pick up the phone to get net caught fish, they will do so. If they have to berate the LFS owner to order from Steve or Mary, they will not do that most times. That requires conflict, effort, and no guarantee of getting what they want.
If they have to drive 3 hours to a LFS selling Mary or Steves fish, they will just buy a fish in town.

I'm not saying Mary or Steve have to be the ones to sell directly to reefers, but they should at least recognize the value in this.
Mary, how many orders per week do you think FFE sends out?
How many do you send out?
You see, plenty of people are willing to mail order fish. If someone gives them the choice of guaranteed net caught fish, do you really think they will order as many cyanide caught fish?

Ask Marine Center if they have any problems selling the net caught fish they advertise? Problem is I don't know if they really are net caught.
What we need is proof that they or any other vendors have knowledge of the supply chain and can guarantee the fish are net caught.

I know from my experience when FFE gets in a shipment of larval raised fish they sell all of the desirable species very quickly.



John

 

[ChrisRD]

Turtlespd may be frustrating to listen to because of his comments, but he's the only hobbyist I've seen on these boards with the guts to say what 90% of the hobby thinks. Not that I'm condoning it by any means- I think it's dangerous and irresponsible to say that cyanide isn't a problem- but he does speak for the vast majority of hobbyists.

I don't think this has anything to do with guts. Although Turtlespd may speak for the majority of the hobby (you would know more about this than I), I don't think he speaks for the majority of us here at RDO. I think you're not hearing this stuff on this board because this is not how many of our members think. IMO, the majority of the responses in this thread illustate that. I do understand, however, that we represent a very small part of the hobby...

 

[Anonymous]

Just give me another tuna sandwich! I don't care if it was net caught or not. Why do you?

 

[turtlespd]

Indland aquatics is a online retailer? the selection inst too bad but not the fish im intrested in. ALthough i think many other reefers would love them. Problem is the price. 74 bucks for a powder blue..i think my price on those are about 25 bucks, retail abuout 50 bucks and they are 74 bucks. The odds favor takign a risk and not haveing a guaretee net caught fish. I would be able to get 3 fish at my price and what about shipping? Out of those three fish i get at worst i will have one die or even two. If they do live then a make a few more dollars. ALot of people will make the comparision, humm 50 bucks or 75 and have to deal with shipping and they will choose the cheaper fish...thats how most people are. If it was alttle more on the regular retail side it wouldnt be too bad but the mark up shows why they are captive species I have no real choice! i can ask and want a plea all i want but if you look at teh thousands of post on these boards daily not one would ask about cyanide. If i can get really nice fish even at retail but really healthy i would jump on it..a extra dollars wont hunt for a healthy fish. I feel if we are to govern our selfs it will only cause kaos. History has proven this to be a fact. We need leaders, someone with some PULL, othewise this hobby is doomed.

By the way how come Inland prices are so high? Is it because they are 100% guarentee? i guess thats the price to pay for NET caught..the thing may still die durring transit and all.

Paul

 

[aquarist=broke]

SO what do you recomend i do?

I am a single reefer..

I have the best soultion for you. If you really want to do something for the reefs, then stop keeping fish. If you stop keeping fish you would eliminate the demand for fish.

I get some special fish from time to time for some wacko friends that are insane reefers.

I would imagine the numbers of people that saw your big tank of "properly" caught fish and decided that what you had they could too. Many people that see our aquaruims want one, and buy one before researching anything. There are "wacko" people that create a demand for fish.

If you stopped keeping fish today, how many people would you eliminate from the "demand" for fish today, tomorrow, or the next ten years?

Im sure there is something out there but man what do you really what me to do? Offer me something i can help with..

The above suggestion would help.

So what air am i breathing ..not air its what im smoking.." take a toke and youll feel a lot better" lol

Sorry man, I don't smoke crack..... :roll:

 

[john f]

Paul,

Inland Aquatics prices are high because they hold all the fish for 3-4 weeks prior to sale. The PBT's they have are probably NOT net caught. But they have been kept and feed for a month before the end user gets them. That makes them MUCH more valuable (to me) than some fish you sell in your LFS the same DAY you buy it.
This is the same reason Marine Center prices are high.

I personally think LFS should sell livestock at a premium and hardgoods at discount.
I never have understood why most LFS mark up the hardgoods so much but try to sell discount fish. I can buy the hardgoods cheaper online, but alot of folks like to see the fish they are buying.
I personally would pay 75-80 dollars at my LFS for a PBT thay have kept for a month that is fat and healthy.
There are very few bargains on live animals.

Kind of reminds me of the folks who tell you they paid $400 for a dog.....................so what? Is he a good, healthy example of the breed? If so, the $400 is NOTHING and you will spend many times that over the years caring for the dog.
A $75 PBT that lives in your tank for 10 years is almost priceless. During that time you will no doubt spend that much or more on electricity EVERY MONTH just to run the tank he is in.



John

 

[turtlespd]

aquarist=broke,

You a funny guy. You are telling me not to purchase fish because there isnt no real answer and i TOTALY AGREE WITH YOU. The only means is to try but without much help or vendors who will promte this..the hobby will stay as is or dimminish. Although your response is somthing alittle on the unreallistic side it is somwhat the truth and the same thing i have been trying to point out. We are the demand and as long as there is a demad the fish will pour in from all over the country...Lets be realistic now, i will not stop buying fish as much as you wont take a smoke. With millions of other reefers doing the same we are doomed. I am not the one sitting here talking about saving the reefs. I am asking what other options does other reefers have when trying to get that one fish they want. This is my hobby just like my car hobby and it brings me pleasure. I doubt if many reefers trurly deeply care about the reef but im sure there are very many who do but just outnumberd by those who some what care but rather have that one fish....Nice to hear the truth sometimes but truth hurts. Are you sure just one puff!!

John f

Indland aquatics, sounds like a good thing but mail order for some livestock isnt a great source..people want to see the fish and unless you are in some areas that dont have a large selection it may be your best resource. LFS sells livestock dirt cheap because they need to move the fish before they die..in the conditions they are kept most likly half will die. They want to sell the fish and make money on the goods. Most pet shops sells aquarium for expample at cost or even below only to sell the equipment to you and makes the bucks...If y ou look around at all the pet shops around S cali..they are nothing but a bunch of jackals if you ask me. The ones who stay in buisness will sell a half dead clown if they can. One of the more successfull LFS around my are..one i use to work for sells fish at dirt cheap prices and they are still negotiable. He just wants to sell as many as he can before he loses them due to cyanide or poor conditions. He sells the goods to keep the fish and thats how he makes his cash. Alone he has put every other good fish store around in about a 30 mile radius out of buisness. I know his fishes are not top notch but the customers shows how this industry is begin pushed back. I know him personaly and trust me he is a balla....if you talk to him it makes you angry cause he can care less about the fish and doesnt even know how to care for them. MONEY MONEY MONEY.
Top dollar for quality is somehting i also believe in but i dont mind savign a few bucks here and there. I have my sources and they have taken care of me very well. If i didnt have the sources i would also purchase from indland aquatics to get a top notch fish. I spent 1200 on my Stafishire and yes it was because of the health guarentee and quality. If i had another source to purchase it cheaper i would of but i felt it was worth it. Same with the fish i got. I feel they are healthy and have stayed with me for quite some times. The fish i have gotten for my friends have also been in great shape some over 8year...i have no complaints of my sources.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm getting into this late, but saw something worth commenting on:

Please let me know who the suppliers are that did the cyanide tests for you, I'd love to get a hold of these test kits - they must be the only ones in the U.S. that have them since nobody else has one that works - I'm not sure how it works but from what I understand the cyanide leaves the tissue very quickly, thus all tests come up negative for cyanide.

Actually, there is a reliable test -- it involves killing the fish, however. The Goodfish program (now defunct? If anyone knows anything solid about their fate, -please- let me know) of Ecovitality relied on this test; they'd spot test out of the batches they brought in.

 

[MaryHM]

CJDevito:

Ecovitality purchased from a station that had their fish tested via the IMA cyanide detection test. This testing has now been discontinued. To my knowledge fish have never been tested stateside.

Concerning Ecovitality, you can read about them in the "If you build it they will come" thread in the Industry Forum.

 

[Dumb Guy]

Why do people even use cyanide? Is it easier to catch fish with or something? Just like everything, if people are willing to sacrifice ethical practices for lower costs, then the practices will continue. The only way to stop them is by law (crap way) or by educating people so they WANT what is right (perfect world way). As long as there are turtlespd's then cyanideation (I made that word up. Its pretty sweet) will continue. I've been to Indo, and I would pay triple fish prices to make sure my great grandkids could see the in-frickin-credible (that word is even sweeter) place. And if I don't have great grandkids, I'd do it for YOURS turtlespd. Indo rules. You think your little fish tank is cool... Anyway there are things you can do. A million people already pointed them out.

I've never bought anything from an LFS. But that's cuz I live near the Keys and can collect everything myself. Pretty lucky.

Rex