How much would you pay?

[turtlespd]

Dumbguy,

Cynide is just a faster way of catching fish but a very unsafe way of catchign fish and it does take told on t he reefs. I dont understand whats wrong with my way..There is pretty much almost no other way. Out of almost all these reefers on this board 95% of the speciese in their tank isnt captive. Even you picking stuff off the keys causes damage to a delicate system. You are doing the same as i. I may cause alittle more damage from buying species that are not captive but if any of us want anyithing in our reefs that is half decent too bad they have to be wild. Isnt that why all of us are even in this hobby? Some species just doesnt give me satisfaction anymore. So i gotta move on up to better things. You gotta really be kidding about people like are the ones to make the reef vanish...if you havent notices humans have destroyed this planet and global warming has increased at a very fast pace..so far the reefs are bleaching. So stop pointing fingers and look in the mirror..eveyone is to blame..and dont "dumbguy anyone"

Paul

 

[aquarist=broke]

There is pretty much almost no other way.

Remember my post above...? If you thought about it you could figure out how many people would want a tank after seeing yours. If you wanted to be realistic you would stop reefkeeping, and if you really wanted to see exotic fish in a tank you'd go to a public aquarium. The cost to see those animals would probably be cheaper than keeping a tank. Making a difference starts with you .

 

[turtlespd]

Aquartistbroke,

You gotta understand, im in this hobby so i can enjoy my self. Im not an environmentalist or will i ever. If i had a choice i would choose the better alteanitive but the alternitive currently isnt a great one. Have you seen the tanks at the aquariums? huge brown sps. Hundreds of tangs and clowns..those are the things i hate about reefing. For those people who do get to see my tanks who get intrested in the hobby i start them off right. I help them purchase the equpiment, install most of it and teach then the right way..i think i do more good that bad..They become really good hobbiest if started out right and harly kill any fish..the only people i show my tank to are those who are close to me or good friends..so stranges who PM me and ask to take a look can take a hike. My gf guest who comeover and as about the hobby and i tell them prepare to spend over 10000...that scares alomst all of them away but those who still ask questions i end up helping them out..i feel like a goodie goodie now..

Paul

 

[Dumb Guy]

turtlespd -

no, not everybody is to blame. catching specimens by net in the wild is not the problem with the hobby. everybody with a tank can net a fish a week and leave everything, reefs, food chain, etc. virtually untouched. it's stuff like cyanide that puts a hurting on the whole ecosystem underwater. other people have already posted the numbers.

so you might not want to pay higher prices for a mail-ordered net caught fish, and you yourself may live happy the rest of your life with your cyanide fish, but that's pretty selfish. think about other people down the line. don't you want to see your kids or whatever be able to have an aquarium? cuz they wont be able to if the government prevents importing fish or if the accessable reefs die.

 

[clarionreef]

You're right Paul,
Done right and of course with nets, fish collecting for predominately herbivores and plankton feeders without damaging habitat can go on indefinitely. In Mexico, we have a collecting village that has collected fish from the same rocks, crevasses and reefs for 24 years! In fact, the areas are memorized so well that the 'take' is predictable.
Meanwhile, the food fish numbers have dropped to the point that our local food fisherman want to switch to tropical fish collecting. This has been a common trend all over the world and especially in the Philippines and Indonesia. Why tropicals? Because they undeniably represent the fastest recruiting and recovering thing out there to make money on, thats why.
The fisherman don't need to involve outsiders to tell them whats going on with their reefs areas. They live there and can see for themselves. In fact, the divers have a better grasp of things than outside observers who don't get to jive with the rythyms and cycles and currents and temperature changes and seasonal variability thruout the years.
In our species list, two have now been bred...[ out of 80 ] not commercially of course, but the blessed events have now occured with the bluespot jawfish and sailfin blennies we have supplied to our local research lab.
The divers are concerned. They fear that this may negate a need for their wildcaught produce and their livlihoods.
Don't worry, I assure them. Scientists do this because they want to involve themselves in the resource as well and they are already on salary. They have to do something to earn their keep! Besides, even if they did produce commercial numbers, whos going to import a shipment with two items on it? Clearly wildcaught fish are the name of the game. Tankraised is just a little spice, a little tokenism to let us feel that were trying to "save the reefs". But those two fish are abundant! After 20 years of collecting they are still everywhere and in the same spots!
SSSShhhh! People have a need to save something, even if its not in danger. Especially the safer places that are not in danger.
Save the reefs? Whos killing them? Asks Cheecho. Well, the destructive fisherman who use dynamite and cyanide are. And the coral trade and the decorative coral trade, and the loggers causing siltation and the anchors and the customers who drive the demand....
But thats not us! We don't do any of that!
Right...but we have to put up with the outrage commited by others and suffer scrutiny and suspicion despite the fact that we are and have always been totally innocent.
Thats not fair, he says. Or accurate, or scientific, say I. But the aquaruim trade in Asia has given us all a bad name and we have to invest a lot of money now to bring over outsiders to prove our lack of damage and that our fish stocks are healthy. 'How long will that take?' Hes asks.
Forever I think. The business of exploiting legitamate environmental problems elsewhere is forcing its way into our lives here. We're safe and easy targets. Not at all like the Indonesian cyanide cartels.
'WOW! If they want to make money off the fish, they should just catch em like we do!"
But they don't know how to catch em. And they don't know much about em. But one thing is for sure. They will make more money off of them than we will....
Steve, Cortez Marine
from Baja, Mexico

 

[turtlespd]

Cortez mariene,

Ahh at last some dose of reality....

Paul

 

[SPC]

Cortez Marine posted:

But the aquaruim trade in Asia has given us all a bad name

-I am confused with this Steve, you wrote the following in the Industry forum:

30 years collecting in the keys without using dope?
Sounds like Billy Causey...the best fish collector in the Keys since Robert Straughn.
If hes the one...its true. Steve

-So I presume you just forgot to add the Keys in with Asia? I mean it appears to me by your above statement that you feel there are only a couple guys out of hundreds who have not used dope in the Keys, is this correct? BTW, your response was to my telling of how I recently purchased some fish from a diver in the Keys. Someone came on and said that alot of fish are still caught with dope, especially Jawfish. After doing some research I found out that the Jawfish is actually one of the easiest fish to catch by net. Do you agree with this?

Posted by Cortez:

'WOW! If they want to make money off the fish, they should just catch em like we do!"

-Again it looks to me like you are saying that the Keys divers haven't figured this out either?
Steve

 

[aquarist=broke]

Not one of my friends fish have died do to unknown reasons but a few smaller clowns and gobys have.

.....died to unknown causes :?:

I wish i can pay my bills by trying to save the reef but it is something that isnt in my field of work.

By not spending money on animals from the sea, you could save the reefs. Quit keeping these animals. The money you don't spend on your exotic animals will pay your bills no matter what your "field of work" is.

i do this for fun

More support for the "stop keeping fish" attitude that I have been giving you.

I dont want to pull any wholesalers into this thread if they wish not to post.

Well my suppliers were mention..Quality marine, All seas, SDC, Eri

But you will just mention them. That's not pulling them into this thread.

The price for common doesnt bother me on bit. :arrow: Problem is the price. 74 bucks for a powder blue..i think my price on those are about 25 bucks, retail abuout 50 bucks and they are 74 bucks.

But the price doesn't bother you....

Shall I continue?

 

[turtlespd]

Aquartist broke,

..Yes, clowns and gobys have died from unknown reasons..i do suspect cyanide but who says it isnt from shipping.

I do this for fun..i will not spend my money to save the reef foundation when you have our government dumping toxic waste into the waters..."saw that is another thread about poachers getting caught.." I rather pay my bills and keep my reef... ..why help somethingthe Gov is destroying.? So i take it you are donating all your extra cash you use for pleasure into the Reef fund lol.

Your support of not keeping fish is absurd. I sappose you are on this on reefs org to take car of dogs? Do you have a tank? what does is compose of?

When i stated my suppliers it was so eveyone knows where i get some of my stuff...by stating pulling them into this thread maybe true but im supporting them ...You all are the haters flaming wholesalers for bringing in fish and corals to feed your need... I dont need them to back me or nor do they need to defend them selves..Without them we would have squat!

The price of a fish doesnt bother me but if you need it explained the ok..I refuse to get ripped off. A powder blue tang held in a tank for 30 or how many days they hold them to insure health is full of it. A lot of wholesalers have to hold these fish anyways..some longer than others. So whats the big deal? Yes, money for fish if i really want it isnt a issue but getting jacked is diff. 75 buck and you gotta pay for box and shipping. Fish gets to your door stressed and is now dead. You are now out of 100 bucks. Reefer picks out a Powder at a LFS ..looks healthy and have seen it eat. If the reefer is a experienced reefer the fish has a pretty good chance of lliving. Although the Pb does already have a poor track record. This place sells the 75 dollar fishi s out to make a buck if you ask me. If they know so much and are all high and mighty about selling fish kept over a period of time to insure its health, shouldnt they know that PB arent the fish to be selling..A freakn gimmic and all you fools fall for it. Let me sell you a 30 dollar fish for 75 bucks and see how you feel.,..shall i continue? Im not talking about fishes that are 20 -100 dollars either.

Yes support the "stop keepign fish issue". I have no problem with that. I thikn its a freakn great idea. Too bad no one will even consider it. Those who want to flame me abotu buying certain fish yadi yadi..they should listen to your attitude. I dont understand where you stand in the reef industy. Do you have only corals? Corals are just as bad..if no...why the hell you on this board.

SHALL I CONTINUE

Paul

 

[wombat1]

turtlespd pested:

Out of almost all these reefers on this board 95% of the speciese in their tank isnt captive

Please please please don't lump us in with you. It doesn't lessen your culpabilty and it's just not true. Captive raised fish and corals are what SMART reefkeepers seek out.

 

[turtlespd]

Wombat,

LOL ..i wont buch you. You must be a selective reefer. OH pleas cut the BS. No matter how you look at it your tank came from the ocean. Let me get a captive bred. Clarion angel..lol..captive fish>?? How many 10 dollar fish can i have in my tnak before i puke. After reefing for several years you will notice reefers dont have the same kinda of fish..most move up and get nicer colored fish. Captive corals or what you called acracultured corals? EVERYTHING WAS ONCE WILD!! Open your eyes and take a look at reality..Sure i can go around and tell eveyone this fish is captive bred....WHat happned when it is exposed to disease from a buddy of your who gave you a frag? IT WILL DIE. Captive fish are not tollerant to disease as wilds are..Net caught or any fish at that isnt any better than the other..you want to point fingers sure..im guilty but look at your self also..as "AQUARTIS BROKE" said...STOP BUYING FISH!! ..it mayb be kinda smater but i assure you damange to the reef will still come by your little cube in the wall. Its funny i will get flames and next month i will see htat same person posting a thread about how a fish died or what they just purchase and i take it look at its total amusing to me..lol stop fooling yrou selfselves please.

Paul

Paul

 

[MaryHM]

SPC,

Not to speak for Steve, because lord knows he's more than capable of speaking for himself but since he's in Mexico and I don't know how good his connection is...

This thread is about cyanide in particular. That is not the drug of choice in the Keys- they prefer quinaldine (sp?) and I've heard clorox (but don't know if that's true).

Asia gives us the bad name because 90%+ of the fish in the trade come from there. Probably less than 2% of the fish in the trade come from the keys.

 

[Louis Z]

Steve thats good news about the captive breeding of the blue spot and sailfin. Yes that keeps scientists in the money - but there are not enough of them doing the breeding in other species to help in demand. Unfortunately they have to keep the secrets to themselves to justify their performance and have a future job. Here is a thing for them to do- learn how to breed species that are not from the area. Until more info is released on the husbandry and breeding the average hobbyist will always have to depend upon the 95% that are not captive bred for the variety. I am a new saltwater hobbyist and have been researching on how to breed and raise SW fish. More info is out there than ever before and looks promising as time goes when the info is disseminated (yet it wont make a difference at the rate the reefs are being destroyed). But from what I can see on these BBs is that most reefers are not interested in raising fish. Its more about the pretty tank and which fish is reef safe. I had posted a thread on another BB about why hobbyists dont breed fish. I got a lot of excuses and got many negative responses(money,time involved). I even got a "why should I" from a captive sps propagator. I got positive response that many hobbyists want captive bred but unfortunately they are not willing to try it. There are not enough companies/scientists around to learn the secrets of all the fish before time runs out on the health and sustainability of the reefs. Until the hobby is prepared to do what they say, the practices that are so detrimental will continue. To me net caught is more important to me than the cheap drug caught wild. I would rather spend $100 on a fish if I knew it wasnt tainted vs. the 1/3 priced fish that will die later in my tank. I am an educated newbie but I know that I am a 1% minority. I wish I could buy directly from Cortez Marine and Mary but I realize thats a whole lot more load upon all of you.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

Wombat,

........ EVERYTHING WAS ONCE WILD!! Open your eyes and take a look at reality.......

So what if everything was once wild. A tank raise clown fish is better than a wild causht clown fish anytime IMO.

Sure i can go around and tell eveyone this fish is captive bred....WHat happned when it is exposed to disease from a buddy of your who gave you a frag? IT WILL DIE. Captive fish are not tollerant to disease as wilds are.......
......

This is just not true for both corals, fishes and anemones. My Banggai cardinals, Ocelaris Clown are tank breed and raise. They are fine and breeding in my tank. I also have a Orchid Dottyback that is tank breed (I think. I got it second hand). I have never had a tank raise fish died on me. I am sure in over crownded condition, like in wholesalers, toghether with wild fish many, both tank raise and wild, will died. In a reasonable setting, most tank raise fish are superior in health. At least not inferior than the wild causht ones.
Tank propogate corals are certainly superior than wild collected ones in term of health, IME.
I have nearly 100 corals in my tank. All but a handful are tank raised. I also have 30+ fish in my tank. Seven are tank raised.
All 15 of my clams are farm raised. I tried to get tank raise animals when possible

Minh

 

[Anonymous]

I want to know what a "SMART" reefer is and who gets to decide who is and isn't smart. Sounds like a buuch of dumb shi*s to me. I don't see any reason to buy tank raised anything. We should set up the collection to be self-sustaining and let the economics handle the rest. If we can do it cheaper from the ocean, then we should do it.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Mary:

This thread is about cyanide in particular. That is not the drug of choice in the Keys- they prefer quinaldine (sp?) and I've heard clorox (but don't know if that's true).

Asia gives us the bad name because 90%+ of the fish in the trade come from there. Probably less than 2% of the fish in the trade come from the keys.

-Mary, something dosen't add up here for me. If net caught is the way to go, how come the Keys divers supposedely don't do this? Are we expecting other countries to use nets but just except the fact that ours dosen't? If we can't control this in South Fla, do we really believe it can be done in the South Pacific?
Steve

 

[dizzy]

I want to know what a "SMART" reefer is and who gets to decide who is and isn't smart. Sounds like a buuch of dumb shi*s to me. I don't see any reason to buy tank raised anything. We should set up the collection to be self-sustaining and let the economics handle the rest. If we can do it cheaper from the ocean, then we should do it.

I'm pretty much in agreement with #46. The ocean is the perfect place to grow the fishes and corals for our aquariums. It is huge with plenty of clean water, free sunlight, and cheap labor. It gives Island people a job and can teach them to value the reefs and protect them. Survivial of the fittest also means only the genetically superior fish survive in the wild. Aquaculture breeds lots of freaks. Flared gills, misshapen mouths, curved bodies, etc. Perhaps if they did a better job of culling it would help, but lots of bad fish get mixed with the others. Some of this may be the result of inbreeding. They do sometimes break down when mixed with wild fish.

Stop the cyanide use completely. Train divers to use nets only. Set sustainable harvest limits for certain rarer species. Alternate collection areas. Improve handling after the capture. Give stressed fish a longer recovery time between reshipping. Eliminate parasites at the wholesale level before they are shipped to retailers. Teach collectors, exporters, wholesalers, retailers, and hobbyists better husbandry methods. All the above should increase the price of the wild caught to a point where aquaculture can compete on certain species. Expect to pay more, but you will get more in return. I can't wait until we can get true net-caught, stress reduced imperator angels, blue face angels, hippo tangs, and clown triggers. If aquaculture can provide these species cheaper that would be great too.

 

[MaryHM]

SPC,

I will admit here and now that I basically know nothing of the collection techniques in the keys. I don't buy fish from there and have no desire to buy those fish. They aren't that great, except for maybe the queen angels. I think the problem is (and someone with more knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong) that quinaldine use in the keys isn't as widely documented and well known as cyanide use in PI/Indo. I didn't know about it until someone (I think Morgan Lidster) told me about it a couple of years ago. I never would have guessed. PI/Indo have had mass publicity, so it's easier to at least talk about the problem. I don't know what the laws are against quinaldine, what fish are targeted, what damage is done if any to the reef, etc... Any one have these answers?

Mary

 

[turtlespd]

well said 46

Paul

 

[LilFishInBigPond]

SPC wrote:

After doing some research I found out that the Jawfish is actually one of the easiest fish to catch by net. Do you agree with this?

I too have done loads of research in this area, I been told most jawfish are caught on good ol hook and line(easier then nets). Disturbing? Not really, they heal quick, before we get em. Drugs KILL little fish to quick, most can't be caught with drugs. If a fish is a hole dweller, there is no place the escape the drug, it just cooks in the hole(no current to dilute drug). Along the same line, dragonts have never been caught with drugs, they "shut down & clam up" waiting for a better time.

turtlespd wrote:

Let me get a captive bred, Clarion angel.

Steve (Cortez Marine), I've heard the same people who bred the sailfin & blue spot are working on the Clarion? Wild caught Clarion retails between $2k to 5k(top price paid), wholesales aound $1.5k, what would a captive breed one go for?

As for Florida and drugs, not all use it, but how can you tell who doesn't. Isn't it legal, with a permit? Who would raise a battle cry over a legal (permitted use) issue instead of an illegal issue (cyanide & blast fishing). No money in it for NGO's, besides, researchers use the same drug, in the gov. eye, why shouldn't collectors? Just because researchers heve used this drug for decades, doesn't make it right. Net catching has really come a long way since the 70's, why haven't the researchers caught on? [/quote]