How much would you pay?

[turtlespd]

Wolfman,

Cyanide, isnt the problem. Most wholesalers today dont buy from areas where cyanide is beign used, mainly the indoneasian zones. Most of the fish are being caught by net. I have spoken to ERI international Walt smith and All seas, about these issues and they know that these fishes have a high morality rate and they dont buy form those areas. Most of the wholesalers in the LA district only buy net caught. Only in the black market you will see cyanide caught fish. As a matter of fact all the bigger wholesalers promote net caught. Most of the fish we will see in out stores are net caught nowadays. Your facts are true, most fish caugh using chemicals will die unfortunately. Like i said i have been in this hobby for a very long time and i know where my fishes are comming from. You are choosing a fish that is captive over a wild caught only because you believe the fish is caught using cyanide. Well from the horses mouth, i know for a fact most fish being brought in today are net caught. It simply wouldnt be profitable for the wholesaler to be so irrespponsible. I feel in my hands the fish will have a better chance to live because i have experience with wild caught fish and feel the captive fish is better off with a newbie. If you ever see fish underprices then most lilkly they are black market. So again i would pick the better looking fish for my dollar.

Paul

 

[SPC]

Posted by turtlespd:

Cyanide, isnt the problem. Most wholesalers today dont buy from areas where cyanide is beign used, mainly the indoneasian zones. Most of the fish are being caught by net.

Only in the black market you will see cyanide caught fish.

-Paul, the statements you have made above are false. Please visit the link I have provided if you are interested in this subject:
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19431

 

[DBM]

Paul, what kind of air do they breathe on your planet?

 

[turtlespd]

SPC,

Intresting topic but that in it self is a discussion. Everyone is intitled to there own opinion and i learn what i learn from going to wholeslers my self..of course i see many DOA and that will happen in any case. I usually wont belive anything untill i see it with my own eyes. If a wholesaler tells me they dont bring in Cyanide caught fish they i will have to take their word for it.. If when i buy expensive angles i make sure that fish is net caught and uaually they will guarentee this. 100% of the time have been happy with the results. wholesalers just trying to supply a demand. Athough you might not approve we are fueliing it by purchasing lower priced fish. If evey fish was Net caught i cant imagine the cost to carry these suckers over. They claim that these fish are Net caught but who knows. They are trying to supply a whole industry. It all comes down to a 5 dollar fish and a 20 dollar fish..if they both look good i would take the 20 dollar one but im alittle smarter than that...i just let the fish sit in the store for a few weeks if its still alive i will buy it then. Its easy to point and click on a whole bunch of info on the net and im not saying that they are false but the info i get if by doing alittle research my self. As long as i get my friends the fish they want and they dotn float up the next day then things are ok..If the 100 dollar angle dies my supplyer will take the fish and have it tested. I have done this several times and yes in some cases the fish were cyanide detected. I have a friend that owns a pet shop and he has to keep all these fish so they can be tested. This method insures him he isnt getting junk fish. If you r LFS isnt doing this then that is just plain bad practice. For those who never ever worked or know any pet shop owners they will tell you or you will see guys comming in with all kinds of animals and fish. The price is somtimes too good to be true and with some shops who are struggling this is a quick buck..thats what i mean with black market. I see guys carry bag loads of fish in at dirt cheap prices way below my cost at a wholesaler..so where is the cost at? i would expect cyanide fish.

Dbm,

WHat kind of air am i breathing on my planet? lol. at least have the balls to ask me a question on why you feel this way. Have you been to a wholesaler? DO you know anyone who works there? Or are you just a joe blow who buys fish from a LFS and read all this stuff on the net? You may be well informed and good for you. I learn what i learn from experience not something off the net, not to say the net has any bad info. I just prefer to do my own research. I live about a hour from fish street and its fun to go there but money is money some shops just dont have what it takes to stay in buisness and sometimes will bring in cyanaide fish and of course another hot topic dyed corals. They all claim not to know but im sure they are not tellign us eveything. So what air am i breathing ..not air its what im smoking.." take a toke and youll feel a lot better" lol

Please MO only so dont take things too personal.

Paul

 

[DBM]

I am a wholesaler based in Vancouver, Canada. I don't buy from the Red Sea, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and will only buy my fish Philippine fish from the 2 Philippine exporters that have divers that were trained by Steve Robinson, who frequents this board. Please let me know who the suppliers are that did the cyanide tests for you, I'd love to get a hold of these test kits - they must be the only ones in the U.S. that have them since nobody else has one that works - I'm not sure how it works but from what I understand the cyanide leaves the tissue very quickly, thus all tests come up negative for cyanide. Your suppliers are feeding you some major B.S. By the way, I pay the same price for most of my net-caught Philippine fish as I would from the cyanide exporters.

Doug

 

[ChrisRD]

i live in a town with 1 LFS that deals in marine.
I pretty much have no choice but to take what i can get.

I disagree. I live in a remote rural area. There is one LFS that deals in saltwater specimens for about a 45 mile radius. They are terrible. I refuse to do business with them. I mail order and travel to other areas to aquire drygoods and healthy specimens. IMO it's well worth the extra effort. I refuse to support an operation such as the one available to me locally. There are many responsible businesses in this industry that I would like to see succeed (such as our sponsors here at RDO). I'd rather direct my money their way.

The thing that I cant understand is that by allowing people to cyanide fish, the mortality rate is enourmous, thus driving up the cost of fish. If something were to be done about it, fish would be healthier and happier, and so would my pocket because i'm sure I wouldn't be paying nearly as much as I am for good specimens.

True. There are restrictions against drug collection in many areas, but it happens anyway. As long as hobbyists keep buying the stuff there is a demand for it. We (the hobbyists) have the most "say" as to whether or not these practices will continue IMO.

 

[turtlespd]

Dbm,

Ah much better response, someting i can reply to. Well my suppliers were mention..Quality marine, All seas, SDC, Eri, Well i trust them. Most of my fish that if they do die..get sent out and check for what kind of illness they may have in general..not directly cyanide. The fish are usually frozen imediately. If you are from canada im sure your prices will differ far from ours. You must being paying too much for your cyanide fish..i seen it , when i was younger i use to work for a few pet shops. Thats how i got into the industry. That is how i know most of my info is fact. SOme maybe BS but its something i cant really control. If you are paying same price for net caugh and cyanide fish you are being fed some majob B.S also. I never have a problem with my fish that i get..they are always top quality and given the oportunity to select over a few thousand fish is a great asset, unlike a few others who have one or maybe two to select.

Paul

 

[clarionreef]

Wow,
I didn't catch it on CNN or in TIME magazine. When did the glorious breakthru occur?
Don't let anyone from MAC or the IMA find out or their directors will jump off a bridge. Do you have any idea how much money is in the pipeline to seek remedy of this saltwater AIDs, this Watergate of the trade? Do you have any hint on how much is being sought after from Packard and McArthur foundations, US AID and the WWF? Do you relize how much of an industry has grown up to service our little problem?
If it was already solved somehow by the LA boys, why did they keep it a secret? I would imagine they would trumpet it from the rooftops!

I want to know more and where I can sent congratulations to!
Finally, a sustainable industry! I'm going to start ordering blue tangs again. My wife will be so happy! We can become mainstream again and buy a house! We can rejoin the collective!
Thanks so much for the good news! The fantastic news! I am estatic...is that how you spell it? To delerious to think straight...


PS Not!


Steve Robinson

 

[flameangel1]

turtlespd,,

Do you honestly think that a wholesaler is going to TELL you that they are importing/stocking cyanide fish ?????
Of course NOT !!

I highly doubt this great breakthrough on the cyanide testing here in the USA, is ONLY known by the wholesalers you mentioned.
(one of which I personally know, DOES bring in cyanide fish !!!!!!)

 

[turtlespd]

First off i am not saying that they dont bring any cyanide fish in. Im just saying my results have been better than most because i can and have the oportunity to pick out form many not one fish. I sure out of hundred and thousands of fish there willbe a percent that is cyanide caught. I dont think they really want to spend the bucks to catch a 10cent fish when even the resale is only about 10 buks. I cant imagine the really nice fish being made sure it wasnt cyanide caught. Of couse i havent purchased thousands of fish but i have purchased a good amount with great success. This im MY Opinion as stated above. I rarely buy firect from LFS where the battle of the prices gets even worst.

Paul

 

[clarionreef]

Judy,
All Seas is owned by their own family in the Philippines. The Philippine export outfit of theirs became so successful that it spawned All Seas L.A. and All Seas Miami.
They wrote the book on the conventional Philippine fish supply and have long been the standard of cheapness that has created so much pressure to pay low, pack super tight and do the dead runs before the wharehouse opens in the morning.
They have long discovered that the vast majority of retail customers zero in on their cheap Philippine stuff, low ball specials and huge variety.
Imagine if they didn't buy from their own Philippine super station!
Wouldn't make much sense would it?
Steve Robinson

 

[clarionreef]

Dear Spotted turtle,
The luxury to cherrypick from a half dozen wholesalers in LA. MUST BE FUN. Nowhere on earth are there so many fish to choose from within 10 minutes drive of each other. If you have such an opportunity to eyeball and select the best coral beauty out of 200 and the fattest blue tang and the best looking clown trigger, you of course should have pretty good luck. I mean if you really picked your own carefully and the fish were still lousy, what would that mean?
If you had to receive them thru overnite airfrieght however, you might see it all very differently.
Must be nice to scoop out the cherries from a cake baked in large part by a cyanide fish based trade hellbent on ruining itself.
Even if cyanide 'improved' the quality of the fish...its killing of critical coral habitat and eggs, larvae and virtually everything else in the kill zone would still make it a crime akin to receiving stolen property.
On top of that cake we do find clean Fiji, Solomons, Fiji icing. That icing however, is made available thanks to the critical mass of commerce generated by non reforming Indo and the very slowly reforming Philippines...which is the majority of fish in the trade and in LA..
Anyway you spin it...the cyanide fish industry has got to go before its damage to ever dwindling good reef areas brings about collapse, either legislative or biological.
You get what you need though...
Congratulations! STEVE

 

[turtlespd]

I would have to agree..

Paul :mrgreen:

 

[MaryHM]

Thank you Steve for pointing out the obvious. It's very frustrating to try to fight the "Sure all of my fish are net caught, I scooped them out of the tank with a net myself!" mentality. If the people within the industry refuse to acknowledge there is a problem, then how do you begin to solve it?

Some things I just have to point out before I pop!! 8O

If a wholesaler tells me they dont bring in Cyanide caught fish they i will have to take their word for it.. If when i buy expensive angles i make sure that fish is net caught and uaually they will guarentee this.

AND

I cant imagine the really nice fish being made sure it wasnt cyanide caught

If a wholesaler tells you they don't bring in cyanide fish, you DO NOT have to take their word for it! You have a responsibility to educate yourself about the facts and not hide behind the "I didn't know" cloud that so many in the industry and hobby try to cleanse themselves with. Some of the wholesalers you mentioned read and post to this board. Why don't you contact them and ask them to respond to this thread in writing that they do not import cyanide caught fish? I have worked for some of the large wholesalers. One got upset that I would tell customers "If I wasn't there to see how it was caught then I can't say for sure". The correct answer to "Are your fish net caught?" is "Yes, how many do you want."

Did you know that the vast majority of high dollar angels (Blue Face, Majestic, etc..) are cyanide caught?? Steve can expound upon this REALITY. Did you also know that Clown Triggers are another of the major targets for cyanide?? Blue Tangs, the list goes on....

and then this one:

I never have a problem with my fish that i get..they are always top quality

Here's an astonishing fact- everyone please insure you are sitting down before reading further. Comfy? Ok, here we go.

NOT ALL FISH THAT ARE CAUGHT WITH CYANIDE DIE.

(insert astonished gasp from the audience) :lol:

However, on the flip side, all reef areas that are continuously exposed to cyanide DO die. I guess if people are only interested in a living fish, then they don't care. However, if you care about living reefs then you must care. It is your duty to care. Not only to care, but to do something about it.

End of rant. Off to go get my high blood pressure medication....

 

[turtlespd]

Mary,

You are probabally right about the fish being cyanide caught and all. In my experience things have been well. Not one of my friends fish have died do to unknown reasons but a few smaller clowns and gobys have. I really have no other choice that to trust the wholesalers , unless you can point me to someone who wont sell them overpriced and captive. There is no choice IMO, so if i go with that fish i gotta trust my wholesaler. I stick with one of the wholesalers most of the time and the sales guy knows i do this for fun and im pretty much a extreme hobbiest and im well taken care of. I have no issues with wholesalers. I understand that most fish may come in with cyanide but i cant but execpt the fact..no i cant change them im not a enviromentalist nor i have the time. I wish i can pay my bills by trying to save the reef but it is something that isnt in my field of work. I dont want to pull any wholesalers into this thread if they wish not to post. Im sure they must have some cyanide caught fish. I feel luck to ask for a certain fish and see it there waiting for me a few weeks later..we are not talking majectics and emperators here. I do buy expensive fish for a lot of my fiends and they are far from the best fish keepers but as long as they dont die in the next 4 months its not my fault. HOw else will one get a really nice fish? or a rare one at that? The wholesaler i go to is like a huge LFS that is willing to go the extra mile and evey single time the fish has been in great shape, bringing me to the conclusion why these other fish dont look as good. Im not saying they will do it for everyone but the service they give me and the price i just cant pass up and to trust. Please if you have other sources to get fish captive and 100% guarentee net caught fish at the same price please steer me in that direction but untill then the wholesalers will still get my buisness.

Paul

 

[SPC]

Posted by Turtle:

I understand that most fish may come in with cyanide but i cant but execpt the fact..no i cant change them im not a enviromentalist nor i have the time. I wish i can pay my bills by trying to save the reef but it is something that isnt in my field of work.

-Wow (scratching my head).
So earlier you said :

Cyanide, isnt the problem. Most wholesalers today dont buy from areas where cyanide is beign used

And now you say:

I have no issues with wholesalers. I understand that most fish may come in with cyanide but i cant but execpt the fact.

-Correct me if I am wrong, but it sure looks to me that the point you are trying to make is, the heck with the reefs, all that matters is Turtlespd and his friends happiness.
You sir are the perfect example for why this hobby is in trouble. It is this type of attitude that will cause this hobby to be regulated into oblivion. In fact, they can get all the ammunition they need by simply reading your posts, you are an embarressment to this hobby. :roll: :evil:
Steve

 

[turtlespd]

Steve,

SO what do you recomend i do? Im sure there are tons of other reefers out there who are doing the same as i am..simply buying fish or coral for their own personal enjoyment. As a matter of fact im sure if you really gave a rats ass about what you are talking about you would simply not purchase anymore goods inported. I do care for the reef..as much as i care about the next guy standing to me, but you cant expect me to pay my bills caring abotu the reef. I dotn dump oil into the drains and laugh about it..i recycle it. Things the people tryign to earn a livign to catch as many fish as possibe is another. Im sure we should educate those who do use cycanide on how they are destroying the reef with the chemical and although they may not make as much without the cyanide they will atleast have a living in the future. I am a single reefer..why dont the huge companys we purhcase equimpent give a cut of their proceeds to the education of the reef. Im sure there is something out there but man what do you really what me to do? Offer me something i can help with..you want me to make sure i dotn purchase cyanide fish..i have tried but like stated in other post, you cant expect teh wholesalers to tell the truth. I do purchase fish and coral and i knwo they are better off in the reefs by far from my little cube..so pelase before you start pointing at fingers at me..why dont you look at what is sitting in your livign room and see how many fish of your are captive or rock that is home made and seeded..its a pretty difficult task if you ask me. Untill there is a abundant supply of captive grown good and price ..i wont be rushing to buy captive any time soon. All the fish that are captive bred currently are not even being sold at the rate expected..either demand of the price is just still too high for some reefers. ..i dont knwo what else to say..i am educated and ready to learn but you cant expect me to do something that is out of my hands. I do what eveyone else does but the only one willing to admit it. I have only two nice little tangs in my tnak and still feel my 150 is too small and now setting up a 500 plus gallon tank just so the fish can swim. I know its wrong to keep them in there but whats done is done atlest ill make their lives alittle better. SHOW ME THE WAY..

" WHOLESALERS CLAIM NOT TO PURCHASE FROM AREAS SUCH AS VIETNAM AND INDO AREAD..BECAUSE MUCH OF IT IS CAUGHT USING CYANIDE."....so dont blame me

Look you can flame me as much as you want superman. Because i dont agree with you im an embarrasment. lol have you seen my tank? i bet there are a ton of reefers out there that cant even keep a simple damsel. At least i care about my fish..to a certain point. What do you do that is so great? You sell 100% net caught fish..cool. I cant control waht a wholesaler says to me..what am i gonna give him the third degree. If you can point me to yoru distributer who is located near me and is willing to sell me fish at a decent price then ok ill go with that. back and forth back and forth..what for me to do?

Paul

 

[DBM]

Here we go again.

Please if you have other sources to get fish captive and 100% guarentee net caught fish at the same price please steer me in that direction but untill then the wholesalers will still get my buisness.

It all comes down to the dollar now doesn't it. As a general rule almost all hobbiests will pick the cheapest source of fish, regardless of it's source.

If you couldn't buy fish at wholesale prices, would you buy from a retailer in your area that sold net-caught fish for a competitive price? I highly doubt it, but I bet if you couldn't buy wholesale you would frequent the place that had the cheapest fish. Here you are bitching about how you don't buy from retailers because the fish cost too much, but you have a 120 reef and are contemplating setting up a 500. You sir are not a embarassment to the marine fish hobby, you are a fine representative of it. (apologies in advance to the few who don't fit this stereotype)

 

[SPC]

Posted by Tutlespd:

Steve,

SO what do you recomend i do? Im sure there are tons of other reefers out there who are doing the same as i am..simply buying fish or coral for their own personal enjoyment.

-Paul, there is a big difference between saying that we are buying fish and coral for our own personal enjoyment (which we are) and saying:

no i cant change them im not a enviromentalist nor i have the time.

What you are saying here is that your only concern is your happiness, the other is out of your hands. Your excuse of "tons of other reefers out there are doing the same thing" is the reason this hobby is in the trouble that it is.
Here is the real truth, this hobby is being watched very closely right now by people who would like to stop all imports of marine animals. If we can't show them that we as a hobby are willing to clean up our own act, then they will indeed find success. If this hobby continues with the attitude that you have, then the handwriting is on the wall, they win.

As a matter of fact im sure if you really gave a rats ass about what you are talking about you would simply not purchase anymore goods inported

.

-I don't, my tank is a Caribbean biotope with all animals coming from the Keys and the LR is aquacultured from the Gulf of Mexico, but I degress. The point of this discussion is dealing with your attitude and all other reefers who feel that we play no part in the demise of the worlds reefs. There is still hope to save this hobby but it will take a tremendous mind shift to one of a much more concsiences thought process.

I do care for the reef..as much as i care about the next guy standing to me, but you cant expect me to pay my bills caring abotu the reef.

-Thats what I am talking about right there Paul, its inconvenient for you so its ok in your mind. Somehow you are under the impression that this hobby and the worlds reefs must bend to suit your needs. The real truth is that your attitude only furthers the need to shut down this hobby.

Im sure there is something out there but man what do you really what me to do? Offer me something i can help with

Ok Paul, for starters you can stop posting to reef boards claiming that,
"Cyanide, isnt the problem. Most wholesalers today dont buy from areas where cyanide is beign used". Next you can educate yourself on the reasons this hobby is under the microscope and try to educate others on this subject. All of this is free Paul, it will only cost you a shift in attitude.

i am educated and ready to learn but you cant expect me to do something that is out of my hands. I do what eveyone else does but the only one willing to admit it.

-And I for one am glad you are admitting it, this way maybe others with this same attitude can learn from this.
I do expect you as a fellow hobbiest "to do something about it", please quit acting like you are helpless. Each one of us can make a difference, but its more than that, we must make a difference if this hobby is to continue.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Dear Folks,
Hes just being honest in a way that the other 95% of the industry is not.
No one defends cyanide fish...they just buy em.
No one defends cyanide collecting...they just do it.
No one is speaking against the coral reef...they just support killing it by their actions. [ culture a frag-kill yet the reef style environmentalism]
And no one is against net training and reform... the professional reform groups just don't know how to do it. 15 years and still on the same issue and still no handnetting material in the field despite the pleas of the divers!
No one is against the mission statements of AMDA and MASNA, IMA and MAC ...they just DON'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO FIELD IMPLEMENT .
This forum does have its place but it needs to translate into action and results. We need to elevate the importance of things to more than chat line threads.
October must become a more defining month in how things will play out.
Turtle spot is just illustrating how much still really needs to be done and gives us a window into the mindset of the grand majority of our customer base. For that I'm grateful.
Steve