Questions on 400watt. HQI Set up............

[Markstr]

Hi,
Need to get some opinions on this..........

I have a 95gal. Reef Tank I'm setting up (SPS-CLAMS)
Dimensions: 44L x 20D x 25H.......................
I have a chance to get a good buy on a Duel PHO HQI
400watt w/ 10k bulb etc..... reflectors...
Now from what I have been hearing 25-30 inches in Depth
would be more benificial for using 400watters.....
Of course I will be going w/ a DSB. which would decrease
depth some what (4-5inch approx.)
IS THIS OVERKILL for this size tank??????????????
Would it be more practical to go w/ 2-250's HQI ???????
Or use the 400watts & go with 20k Bulbs which I heard are
not quit as intensive????????????????????????????????????
SUGGESTIONS PLEASE..........
Thank You........

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Let me just say this. I just sold off my entire 400 watt HQI 20k setup and replaced em all with Giesemann DE 150 watt HQI pendants about 6 weeks ago. The 20k DE 150 watt bulbs are brighter more intense than the 400 watt versions and have a higher PPFD/PUR value per watt to boot. All my tanks are 24" deep and my corals have been growing like weeds since switching over. The DE bulbs last 18 months(vs. 5-8 months on the single ended) cost a third less, and draw only a third of the energy. You do the math on this one.

 

[john f]

Do a search on HQI lighting.
R&B is the only one claiming the 150 DE are brighter than the 400 watt HQI 20k. Sanjay states they are not.
Decide for yourself.

John

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Sanjay NEVER claimed the 20k RADIUM BULB was brighter than the DE 150 20k RADIUM BULB, or 10k for that matter. But he did test a 10k DE 150 bulb,250 10k DE bulb and 400 watt 20k bulb. Of all 3 the 20k 400 watt mogul has the lowest PPFD/PUR and is the dimmest.

John F: I know from experience that you have NEVER seen a 150 DE 20k bulb side by side with a 20k 400 watt single ended bulb, so how can you rely on complete hearsay??? At least I attempted to do a DIRECT VISUAL COMPARISON, along with all my corals responding positively since the switch with a noticeable increase in growth rate,especially my SPS and Anemones. Do a search yourself and show me a post where Sanjay SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT a 20k 400 watt Radium is Brighter than its 150 DE 20k counterpart. Or that the PPFD/PUR is higher, either in total quantity or watt for watt. John since you make this claim, how bout you back it up?

 

[esmithiii]

Sanjay NEVER claimed the 20k RADIUM BULB was brighter than the DE 150 20k RADIUM BULB, or 10k for that matter. But he did test a 10k DE 150 bulb,250 10k DE bulb and 400 watt 20k bulb. Of all 3 the 20k 400 watt mogul has the lowest PPFD/PUR and is the dimmest.

John F: I know from experience that you have NEVER seen a 150 DE 20k bulb side by side with a 20k 400 watt single ended bulb, so how can you rely on complete hearsay??? At least I attempted to do a DIRECT VISUAL COMPARISON, along with all my corals responding positively since the switch with a noticeable increase in growth rate,especially my SPS and Anemones. Do a search yourself and show me a post where Sanjay SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT a 20k 400 watt Radium is Brighter than its 150 DE 20k counterpart. Or that the PPFD/PUR is higher, either in total quantity or watt for watt. John since you make this claim, how bout you back it up?

Your point is moot. He wants a 400W 10K bulb, not the 20K radium. Let's not turn this thread into a debate yet again on how great the 150W DE HQI bulbs are supposed to be.

To answer Markstr's question, No, it would not be overkill. Your corals will love you for it. Plan on some fans to decrease the heat.

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

He actually asked a lot of questions. If you reads the question thoroughly he also mentions 20k bulbs. Most people who "debate" the issue on the DE vs. Single ended setup, have never had em both side by side in person.

I have practical experience with this, so whats the problem with my comments? It only gives him something else to think about and do research on.

People locally should check out Inlandreef's new Live rock curing tanks. They have 2(actually 4 but 2 are up and running) 100 gallon containers(36"x36"x24" I believe)and 1 single NovaII DE HQI 150 watt pendant is over BOTH of them(about 18-24" feet off the waters surface) to help the curing process. And its very bright to say the least.

 

[esmithiii]

He actually asked a lot of questions. If you reads the question thoroughly he also mentions 20k bulbs. Most people who "debate" the issue on the DE vs. Single ended setup, have never had em both side by side in person.

This may be the case, but you seem to be the only one trying to sell us all on these bulbs. Unless I personally buy these bulbs I will probably never have a chance to see them in person here in Knoxville. It is very hard to believe that (speaking about 10K bulbs here) that a 150W will have higher PAR than a 400W bulb. It just doesn't make sense. Until I see some hard data comparing apples to apples (reflectors and all) I will not recommend the 150W DE HQI bulbs to anyone over a 400W setup. Put simply, it seems much too good to be true. Don't take offense if many are sceptical of your fanaticism, but you seem to be a lone voice on this one.

Ernie[/quote][/list]

 

[john f]

"The 20k DE 150 watt bulbs are brighter more intense than the 400 watt versions and have a higher PPFD/PUR value per watt to boot. "

R&B,
Do you have any data to back this up? Same reflectors of course?

I remember Sanjay coming on this board to or maybe reefcentral.com to refute your claims that the 150 de has more PPFD than a 400 watt mogul.
I bet you remember it as well.
Also, please STOP trying to interchange PUR and PAR. They are very different as you know.

I only posted in response to you because I have noticed you are the lone voice on this one and I didn't want a new guy to follow your advice without very careful consideration.

No I have not seen a 150 DE 20K. But until you post me a link to a test done comparing apples to apples I will not take your word for it. Sorry.


John

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

I highly doubt I am the "lone voice" on this, and I do remember the "sanjay" comment which was VERY VAGUE and INCOMPLETE as a response at best from his own words. But it was still a proven fact, with or without reflector that in energy consumption(watt for watt) the DE bulbs put out the highest PPFD value.

WHat makes this unfortunate is that alof of folks who talk against my claims are doing so without any knowledge whatsoever and with hearsay knowledge at best. I already know that both the 150 DE and 250 DE bulbs are superior in all aspects including energy conservation, bulb life, PPFD,PUR, and even spectral balance and distribution, and from what I have heard Inlandreef and Premiumaquatics will be loaning some equipment to Sanjay for testing.

I hope Sanjay though employs a few things in his test including:

All mogul bulbs and DE bulbs to be first tested without reflector, with DE bulbs having a UV shiled placed in front of them(as the single ended bulbs come in encased in their own UV shield).

All bulbs(both mogul and DE) use identical material reflectors with identical(or at least as close as possible)reflection angles

A minimum batch of 3 bulbs tested of each brand

All bulbs to be tested repetitively with both Magnetic(HQI and regular)and electronic ballasts

Percentage values of PUR from PPFD values

Spectral curve compared to the sun's natural outputs.

I am sure some other folks may be able to add to this, but I hope somebody posts a link to these minimal procedures that I think ALL bulbs should be based off of, so that we can lay this debate to rest.

But until then, check out this link, it shows what one single(not 300 like I stated for a ruse) 150 DE(NovaII 20k bulb) setup looks like in comparison to my old dual 400(920 watt total) watt 20k HQI setup. http://www.reeftalk.com/ubbthreads/show ... mber=16800

 

[SPC]

Thanks for the link John, what did that one guy call you, "an odd fellow" :lol: .
To the point of your pictures, to my eye I definately saw a hot spot.
Steve

 

[JeremyR]

Comical.. you argued so long that the 150w DE was as bright as the 250w DE, then you state in that post that you have 250w DE's on order. In this post you are claiming your DE is a 20k, yet you use sanjays study of the ab 10k 150w DE for your info.. sheesh. It doesn't get any more apples & oranges than that.

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Jeremy, what is comical, is your inability to closely read a post. I originally compared the 150watt Giesemann NovaII pendant to the 250watt AB aquastarlight fixture. Even Tom at Inland said they were very close in output, even his meter confirmed that. I also stated that I think that Giesemann is a superior fixture over the AB products.So yes my argument stands from experience that A Giesemann 150 DE product is pretty much equal in output to the AB 250 DE fixtures, and alot of this has to do with superior relector material and possibly a ballast that drives the bulb with a bit more power. If you just put a bit of glass cleaner on your glasses,wipe em off and check out some of the older posts concerning this you would see that I mention this outright.

My statements are based on Giesemann products, not all DE setups.As I am well aware of alot of people being very dissapointed with the PFO mini pendant setups. I myself have seen them and dont blame people for their comments.

As for the 20k comments in this post Jerry, I do believe that the 150DE 20k bulb is far superior over the single ended 400 watt counterpart. Same identical spectrum, but 1 DE bulb being as intense as 2 Single ended bulbs by the same company(Radium)??? Even my SPS coral frags have shown a noticeable increase in their growth while keeping the same great coloration.

Hey I only got on the DE bandwagon because I was planning on purchasing a new chiller and needed to save electricity. WHen Tom and Matt from Inland showed me their new fixtures, I was very impressed, and now after having owned em for a bit, I am even more impressed. SO its not just talk or speculation, its my own personal experience too.

I am not putting down single ended bulbs at all just to clear things up, I think there are alot of great bulbs in fact including the 6500k, 10k and 20k bulbs. Its just that I think they use alot of energy to do what they do, especially when there are bulbs and setups that can do an equally good job using alot less energy. WHen I didnt have a need for a chiller, I really didnt care as long as I knew that my corals where getting the light they needed. But my needs changed so other products were tried. My classic argument was pitting 3 150 watt bulbs vs a single 400 watt Iwasaki. Sure an Iwasaki with a reflector will beat out a single DE 150 10k bulb, but equal up the power consumption using 3 DE bulbs and the numbers posted by Sanjay PROVE that 3 DE 150 bulbs will crush a single 6500k Iwasaki in PPFD,intensity,PUR,PORK, you name it. Hence my original watt for watt ideal. Then add in specific products and my argument starts to cover more ground, but hey its just that, an argument. But Jerry, you have dodged alot of rebuttals from me in the past, and I think you need to start answering them before you get into the thick of it with me on new arguments. I made alot of solid points that specific people love to overlook when debating with me. I have learned alot the last few years(still have plenty more to learn too)and have tried to put alot more scientific thought and reason into my arguments, and keep a bit more of the arrogance out of the conversations, but it seems that other people have failed to "grow" in this same time span themselves. Kind of funny when Marine Biology still has alot of growing to do altogether.

 

[john f]

The problem with your arguments is you keep changing them.

Does a single 150 watt DE Radium 20K put out more light than a single 400 watt Radium 20K on HQI ballast?
Not watt for watt, simply total light output.




John

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

Yes it does, if you check out the link, it shows a single(1 month old) 20k DE bulb vs. a pair of 2 month old 400 watt mogul based 20k bulbs run off a dual PFO HQI ballast.

 

[john f]

Man,
You're like hitting a moving target.

So now you're just going off your visual perceptions? You keep talking about PPFD/PUR values. Where are they?



John

 

[golfish]

Hi,
Need to get some opinions on this..........

I have a 95gal. Reef Tank I'm setting up (SPS-CLAMS)
Dimensions: 44L x 20D x 25H.......................
I have a chance to get a good buy on a Duel PHO HQI
400watt w/ 10k bulb etc..... reflectors...
Now from what I have been hearing 25-30 inches in Depth
would be more benificial for using 400watters.....
Of course I will be going w/ a DSB. which would decrease
depth some what (4-5inch approx.)
IS THIS OVERKILL for this size tank??????????????
Would it be more practical to go w/ 2-250's HQI ???????
Or use the 400watts & go with 20k Bulbs which I heard are
not quit as intensive????????????????????????????????????
SUGGESTIONS PLEASE..........
Thank You........

I would go with the 2x250 watt double ended HQI's in 10k for now. They don't yet have the 250 watt DE 20k bulbs on the market yet but they will soon enough. I don't think anybody will argue that the 250 watt 20K bulbs will have MORE PAR then both the 150 DE bulbs and the 400 20K bulbs.

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

I think that will all depend on the ballast and reflector used. I can at least say one thing. The GIesemann NOVA II 150 DE's pendants are VERY CLOSE to the AB aqualine 250's in intensity and equal in PPFD, whether or not this has to do with a superior reflector/ballast combo, who knows? But the difference is obvious between these 2 company's products.

 

[golfish]

I think that will all depend on the ballast and reflector used. I can at least say one thing. The GIesemann NOVA II 150 DE's pendants are VERY CLOSE to the AB aqualine 250's in intensity and equal in PPFD, whether or not this has to do with a superior reflector/ballast combo, who knows? But the difference is obvious between these 2 company's products.

Gee, you must have a Giesemann lighting fixture So your telling me that a 150 20K bulbs puts out more PPFD then a 250 10K bulbs? Or are you comparing 10K's bulbs?

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

I am comparing AB/BLV 10k bulbs. And it was easily apparent after have a Aquastarlight on loaner over a weekend. Even the Instore displays over at Inlandreef help this argument.

 

[golfish]

lol, I doubt very much that a 150 watt DE 10K buld will compare to a 250 watt DE bulb. Now if you want to twist things around and compare fixtures and looks then go aheah. I guess we wont have an answer to my question for sometime.