Garlic Schmarlic

[Karm40]

OK, so what is the deal with garlic treatment for ich? Does it really work? I have seen some anti-parasite foods and when I read the ingrediants, I noticed that they contain copper sulfate. If the fish ingest copper sulfate, does it enter the system? Is it water soluble? I would think that this wouldn't be the best way to go.
My fish were all quaranteened in hypo salinity conditions and had no signs of any disease. It's my understanding that Ich can be introduces via the addition of corals, true?
Well, that's it for now. THANKS

 

[dobish]

In my experience garlic treatment works well to cure and prevent ich. My experience is with tangs and I use Kyolic from GNC.

I would assume that copper sulfate would enter the system through detrius or uneaten food leaching the copper sulfate into the water - diffusion seems to come to mind and makes good sense in this situation...

I think it's safe to assume that any tank that contains fish will also contain the ich parasite whether or not the fish were quarantined....and I would think that it would be possible, but not probable that ich could enter the system on a piece of rock a coral is anchored to....

...now I'm interested to see what others have to say...

 

[liquid]

The use of garlic oil to combat parasites is purely anecdotal but many people swear by it.

Shane

 

[Fishbreath]

Garlic worked for me. Catch the ich outbreak early and it will work. Spots will disappear overnight but keep feeding garlic for a 2-3 weeks. Garlic does not kill parasites that are still in the tank. It only gets the ones on the fish. Eventually the parasites in the tank will die out from lacking a suitable host.

I have only needed to use garlic in my main tank 1 time. New fish added brought in the ich. No sign of ich ever since that one 3-week treatment. I now use a quarantine tank and I do continue to use the treatment in my quarantine tank when new fish show signs of ich. Garlic rids the fish of spots overnight and Copper Safe keeps them from coming back.

 

[Anonymous]

Okay keep in mind a few things here with Garlic. It's not an anti-parasitic, in fact it's not even a repellant (it should have no effect on the parasites already ON the fish).

Brief review of the cycle of parasites, there are three stages, eggs or cysts in the substrate, free swiming stage (looking for a host) and the parasitic stage.

The active ingredient in garlic (if you can get enough of it into the fish's system) chemically masks the signature of the fish to the free swimming parasites. Thus they cannot find a host. When you treat a fish with garlic you aren't seeing the parasite level decreasing because the garlic is repelling them, the parasite levels are decreasing because the fish is no longer being infected by MORE parasites.

The key is getting enough of it into the fish's system, and if the fish is pretty far gone garlic won't help much. It does work as a sort of artificial immune system and I recommend it for entire tank populations when introducing new fish and when a stressor occurs.

Parasites will ALWAYS be able to breed in low sustainable levels, the key is keeping your fish stress free. However in a pinch Garlic is a good reef safe tool.

 

[JeremyR]

I've always thought the garlic stuff to be anecdotal at best.. I'd be curious as to where this info comes from as you are making some pretty scientific sounding claims, such as garlic "chemicaly masks the signature of the fish" etc.


<<Okay keep in mind a few things here with Garlic. It's not an anti-parasitic, in fact it's not even a repellant (it should have no effect on the parasites already ON the fish).
Brief review of the cycle of parasites, there are three stages, eggs or cysts in the substrate, free swiming stage (looking for a host) and the parasitic stage.

The active ingredient in garlic (if you can get enough of it into the fish's system) chemically masks the signature of the fish to the free swimming parasites. Thus they cannot find a host. When you treat a fish with garlic you aren't seeing the parasite level decreasing because the garlic is repelling them, the parasite levels are decreasing because the fish is no longer being infected by MORE parasites.

The key is getting enough of it into the fish's system, and if the fish is pretty far gone garlic won't help much. It does work as a sort of artificial immune system and I recommend it for entire tank populations when introducing new fish and when a stressor occurs.

Parasites will ALWAYS be able to breed in low sustainable levels, the key is keeping your fish stress free. However in a pinch Garlic is a good reef safe tool.

--------------------

Tom O'Toole
Inland Reef Aquaria
Nashua, NH

"Don't cycle a tank with little damsels; use groupers, triggers and morays." -- latest 'cutting-edge' wisdom endorsed by Marc Weiss Co
>>

 

[Marcosreef]

Garlic Article

 

[FMarini]

Tom:
Thats the first time i have heard any info on garlic masking a fishes scent. Have you seen any data on this?

The information I had seen on garlic activities suggested it has two effects, 1)- a direct effect on the parasite(described below), and 2)- an indirect effect by increasing mucus production (slime layer), thereby preventing subsequent reinfection.

The direct effect is based on the active ingredient in garlic (Allicin, a.k.a. Diallyl thiosulfinate) which is tissue permenent. Its supposed to have antibacterial, antiviral, and antiparasitic activites effects.

You can read about some of its activites here
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html

It may have all of these activites, and more. I find that garlic extracts are only effective on real early ich infections, and maybe a better preventative
My opinion
frank

[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: FMarini ]</p>

 

[Bodine]

Garlic works on vampires also!!!!


Seriously.....
As an invert keeper mainly, I have a large hippo tang in my 180 and have never been into fish as much as inverts. Nor do I know much about fish diseases and medication.

When my hippo came down with a rather nasty case of ich last year, I thought he was a goner.
Since capture and medicating the tank was not an option, I tried Koylic-soaked nori and Formular 2.
It was a little diffict to get him to eat this at first, but by the third day he would accept this food. The ich disappear within a few days.....
Anecdotal????
Dont know.

 

[Anonymous]

Frank: I do not remember where I read that lil tidbit of info, however even Jorge alludes to it in his own article:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

The aforementioned ability of allicin to permeate tissue and mucus enables it to invest an afflicted area thoroughly with its partially sulfurous chemical signature. The potential is there to mask the chemical cues that enable a parasite's recognition of the host, potentially confusing the invader and further suppressing the havoc it wreaks. (Indeed this would help uninfested fish dodge "Marine Ich").

It was awhile ago that I read that and it might have even been in communication with Jorge on the subject, I've been extremely busy lately and my brain is a little fried, I simply cannot remember at the moment.

 

[Karm40]

Wow! A ton of info. It seems that I have a pretty good outbreak now, so, it's time to try the garlic.
Thanks for all the response!!!
Mark
I'll let you know how it goes.
Oh, what sort of dose should I try if I am going to use Kyolic. What about using raw chopped garlic in solution? Would that be effective?

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Karm40 ]</p>

 

[Terry B]

Karm,
The evidence for garlic’s effectiveness is anecdotal at best for treating ich. Using it to combat nematodes in the intestinal track is another matter, this can be confirmed. I don’t recall seeing copper listed as an ingredient in a food. Can you tell us specifically what product you are talking about? Ich can be introduced with inverts, LR, LS or equipment with tomonts attached. However, the vast majority of the time the parasite is imported on an infected fish (spots are not always visible).
Using garlic as a treatment for ich was first popularized in the USA by Kelli Jedlicki and even she uses hyposalinity instead with a bad infection. It is not consistently reliable as a treatment, works better with light infections and makes a better preventative than a cure. Ich is NOT present in all aquariums or on all fish captive or wild.
Ich will sometimes go away or at least become subclinical without any treatment at all. Garlic is far from a proven method. I find that many people that claim that garlic works only have a relapse within a few months. The problem is that oftentimes garlic does not actually cure the infection, but it helps reduce the severity of infection. This can mean that the infection becomes subclinical only to become problematic at a later date. IMO, those that use garlic as a treatment should continue to administer it for a minimum of 30 days and then use it once a week after that. Garlic does have some antiparasitic actions as evidenced by its effectiveness for treating nematodes. It also has mild antiviral, antifungal and antibacterial action.
I don’t think anyone really knows how, why or if it works. It would help if there was a standardized dosage and treatment regime. I do not believe it activates immune function as such. It is questionable that it even increases mucus production. All of this is probably speculation. I am not sure that it even camouflages the chemical scent of the fish making them unrecognizable. I lean toward the idea though since this seems to be how garlic works to keep flies and mosquitoes off of horses.
It is true that some types of parasites will always be able to breed in sustainable levels, but not Cryptocaryon irritans (ich). This is an obligate parasite meaning it must have a host fish to complete its life cycle. Therefore removing all the fish for 30 days or more will eliminate the parasite from the system. Then treating the fish with a proven effective treatment such as hyposalinity will clear the fish of any infection. Thus you have a system that no longer contains the pathogen and fish that are clean of infection as well.
Am I a believer in garlic as a cure for ich? I would have to say no I am not. Do I think it can help? I would have to say yes. At least for now garlic has not shown to be effective on a consistent enough basis. Maybe at some future point the variables will be taken out that will explain why it seems to work for some and not for others. If I had a reef tank full of inverts and my fish got ich, then I would probably give it a try. In the meanwhile I would be prepared to treat the fish with hyposalinity. The main point that should be learned by all this is that this problem can be avoided in the vast majority of cases by simply practicing quarantine for a minimum of three weeks BEFORE introducing any new fish to your display. If people would just learn the value of practicing quarantine then having a display tank infected with ich would be an uncommon occurrence.
Terry B

 

[Karm40]

The food is Spectrum or Spectra Thera A.
I'm thinking about the process of quarantining and the merits of it. I did quarantine my fish for 3 weeks using hyposalinity conditions. This seems effective in making sure that the fish is eating, etc. but even if you deem it disease free and put it in your system, there is no guarantee that it won't pick something up in your tank. As you stated, parasites can be introduced via invert introduction or equipment. So, it seems that at this point, there is no easy solution.
I'm going to attempt the garlic treatment and if that isn't effective, I guess I will catch the fish and quarantine again.
Thanks,
Mark

 

[Terry B]

Tom,
To explain it completely would take about 1500 words. To start with Cryptocaryon irritans can be transmitted in a number of ways. The most prevalent means of importation is via an infected fish (whether you see visible spots or not). The only way to know for sure that a new acquisition is not infected is to examine samples taken from the skin and gills. Fish often have a sub clinical infection (without symptoms visible to the naked eye). The parasite can be brought in attached to equipment (tomont stage attaches to most any hard surface), rock, sand, inverts, glass, etc. These items are not infected as such. The tomont stage is normally found off the fish when the parasite drops off the fish and transforms to the reproductive stage of its life cycle. If you take an invert out of an infected tank then you run the risk of infecting your display. This does not mean that inverts get ich, but they can carry in tomonts. It is also possible, but less likely, to import the infection in the free swimming stage with a small amount of water.
There are many reasons that fish can suddenly show spots. One of these is that fish that have been previously challenged with ich and survived appear to have an increased resistance to infection. This is not immunity, only an increased resistance. It is possible for these fish to live in a precarious (in an aquarium) balance with the parasite for a time. A stressor or the introduction of a less resistant fish can easily swing the balance in favor of the parasite and suddenly you have a full blown infection.
Cryptocaryon irritans has been studied at great depth and reported upon in the scientific journals. It is common knowledge at fisheries that this is an obligate parasite meaning it must have a host fish to survive. It has also been proven that this parasite does not spontaneously appear. It must be introduced and it can be eliminated from a system. We also have a couple of treatments that will consistently clear it from fish. Cryptocaryon irritans is really not the mythological legend that some make it out to be because they do not fully understand this pest.
Terry B

 

[samurai9]

I bought garlic which has citric acid as the only other ingredient. Is this harmful?

 

[Anonymous]

I never claimed it mysteriously appeared. I said that it cannot be eliminated from a system. You have not explained how a completely isolated system with no new additions can exhibit an outbreak from a stressor.

Chiefly because you can't. Not with your theory that you can eliminate cryptocaryon from a system.
The fact is they CAN breed and exist in a system and NOT harm the animals because the animals own immune system combats them and keeps them in check. Stress those animals out, the parasite can then overpower the immune system and thus an outbreak.

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terry B:
<strong> Ich is NOT present in all aquariums or on all fish captive or wild.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Care to explain how an otherwise healthy aquarium with no introduction of new animals in over a year can easily have an outbreak of parasites just by the introduction of a simple stressor?

If nothing has been introduced and the life cycle is 4-6 weeks how come they can appear a year later?

 

[Terry B]

Tom your opinion is contrary to scientific evidence and knowledge that is common is some circles. Stress does not cause ich it only makes the fish more susceptible to infection IF the parasite is present in the system. If you choose not to believe the results of scientific studies then that is ...well your choice. The fact remains that fish that are unstressed can and do become infected. Stress can play a part but not always. I explained to you already that ich can be present when you do not see visible spots. In those cases stress can weaken the fish and lead to a full blown infection. When the parasite is not present in the system then no amount of stress no matter how great can cause ich.
Tom said "I said that it cannot be eliminated from a system. You have not explained how a completely isolated system with no new additions can exhibit an outbreak from a stressor.
Chiefly because you can't. Not with your theory that you can eliminate cryptocaryon from a system."
This is not a theory but a fact established in repeatable trials.
Not even all wild fish harbor small amounts of ich. It varies from location to location. Samples were taken of fish in Fuji and only one out of 36 fish harbored ich. Ich behaves quite differently in the confines of a small glass box. This is why ich is not a problem in the wild while it can devastate an aquarium.
I think I gave a pretty good explaination of some ways that ich can become clinical after nothing has been recently added to the aquarium. The fact that you don't understand it makes it no less valid. I have consulted with people that are recognised by their peers (scientific community) as the worlds leading experts on the subject.
I have written about a dozen published works on the subject of stress in fish. If you want to read a nine part series containing approximately 1,400 words then let me know. I go into great depth and you won't find anything comparable written on the subject of stress in fish that is directed toward hobbyists.
Terry B

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Terry B ]

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Terry B ]</p>

 

[smokie]

I bought some garlic cloves but my fish wont eat them.

 

[Terry B]

Smokie,
If you want a really reliable treament that will clear the fish of ich then use hyposalinity. It is extremely effective and safe for the fish. All you need is an accurate hydrometer and to keep check the pH daily. If you want to use garlic then go with Kyolic brand liquid garlic extract. Garlic seems to help, but it is not consistently effective.
Terry B