Garlic Schmarlic

[dobish]

Tom: Thanks alot for your post above on a somewhat scientific explanation of why garlic treatment does work....that's the first time I've heard the "masking" theory used, but it does make good sense, plus garlic has been the only dependable method I've found to keep my fish ich free....
Your posts are very informative -- I always look forward to reading them.

Thanks again,

 

[MattM]

Terry -

Believe it or not, you and Tom are actually agreeing to a large part.

You mention how Cryptocaryon can remain subclinical for a time and then become problematic at a later date, this is what Tom means when he talks about sudden outbreaks in a tank with no recent additions. The parasite survives at a subclinical level of infestation and then becomes noticable when a stessor reduces the ability of the fish's immune system to resist the infestation.

About the only point you disagree on is the percentage of tanks that host a subclinical infestation. Our belief that almost all tanks do is based on our experience with our customers many tanks. Personally I would place it in the 90% range.

 

[Terry B]

Matt,
I think you are right that Tom and I agree that it is possible to have a subclinical infection. Althought in the majority of cases ich will show itself quickly IF it is present. Long term subclinical infections are the exception rather than the rule. I think what we disagree upon is whether or not the parasite can be eliminated from a system completely. Scientific studies prove that it can be. If there are no host fish for a period of time (30 days is usually pretty safe) then this parasite dies out from lack of a food source (ie,fish). Cryptocaryon irritans do not feed on anything other than fish (unlike some other types of opportunistic parasites)and require a host fish to complete its life cycle. Hypsosalinity will also clear treated fish completely of ich. I cannot say the same for garlic treatments.
We can only speculate on the percentage of hobbyists tanks that harbor Cryptocaryon. Based on my extensive study and consultations with people such as Dr. Colorni and Dr. Edward Noga I would estimate that number to be much lower than you do. Studies also indicate that the usual course of events is for the parasite to quickly become evident when it is present.
The majority of hobbyists probably do not practice preventive measures such as quarantine. I believe this is irresponsible. The vast majority of outbreaks can be prevented by simply quarantining all new fish BEFORE they are placed into the display. It is really not that dificult to prevent importing the parasite into your system in the first place. Pehraps your customers would have far fewer problems if they quarantined.
Terry B

 

[naesco]

Smokie here is what you do with the garlic treatment.
1. Go to a pharmacy and buy some unflavoured garlic extract Kaoli(not garlic juice as it is diluted.
2. Take any dried food (because it soaks up more garlic extract) and place it in a food top and squirt some garlic extract on it until it is sort of saturated.
3. Let the food sit for 20 minutes or so so all the garlic extract soaks in.
4. Feed the garlic soaked food to the fish.
5. Feed only garlic soaked food.
6. Feed often 4-5 times a day. The idea here is to get as much into the fish as possible.
7. Feed for 30 days. This is because there are different stages of ich and although it may appear to be gone it may not be.

There are other things you can do which may help. If you have access to a UV use it and try to make sure the input in near the bottom of the tank.
If your current critters allow for them, now is the time to consider cleaner shrimp and cleaner gobies. Never buy a cleaner wrasse as they do not survive in our reeftanks.
It is important that you start the treatment at the first sign of ich and because of this every reefer should have a bottle of garlic extract in the fridge. You can use the juice from crushed garlic until to can locate the garlic extract but do not get any garlic pieces on coral as they will become irritated.
When you start treating garlic it is also a good time to get a QT (quarantine tank up and running).
In this way if for any reason the garlic is unsuccessful you can then remove your fish to the QT and treat via hyposalinity method or use a chemical in the QT like Greenex.

 

[Marcosreef]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tom:
<strong>Care to explain how an otherwise healthy aquarium with no introduction of new animals in over a year can easily have an outbreak of parasites just by the introduction of a simple stressor?</strong><hr></blockquote>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terry B:
<strong>Tom,
To explain it completely would take about 1500 words.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, I am interested in your 1500 word explanation.

Please, pardon my ignorance, I am fairly new to reefkeeping. I would like to know factually, also how a year-old system with no livestock additions can develop Cryptocaryon Irritans.

Please correct me, if the parasites only host is fish, and after 30 days of no outbreak, the tank should be clear of it, right? Or is there some dormant form of this parasite just waiting for the right conditions to activate it?

Also, if you used hyposalinity treatment on the fish, would this guarantee against future outbreaks? (As long as nothing was added, corals, fish, live sand, used equip, etc.)

I look forward to learning more on this...

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Marcosreef ]</p>

 

[Steve Richardson]

Its kind of funny. I have never ever had a fish with ich... had saltwater and reef tanks for 10 years I guess.

oops. probably cursed myself there.

I have never bought into the dogma that says ick is in every system. I just find it hard to believe that is it so ubiquitous that you cannot have fish without. However, its almost obvious that animals also harbor parasites without being overwhelmed by them.

'Stress does not cause ich' is semantic bunk to me. Thats like saying stress does not cause the common cold. No kidding. It certainly plays a part in an animals ability to fight off sickness and is part of the equation methinks. Sounds like causation to me.

have fun folks...

-Steve

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Steve Richardson ]</p>
_________________
Honda CL77

 

[Terry B]

Marco,
I am not sure what the rules are here about putting up links to another web site so maybe you should email me. I will tell you where you can read a two part update that I wrote about what we now know about Cryptocaryon irritans. Dr.Colorni in Israel collaborated on it with me.
Terry B

 

[Marcosreef]

Thanks, I appreciate it. I look forward to reading it.

 

[Terry B]

I sent the link for the ich and the stress articles to everyone that emailed me asking for them. Jerrod the email I sent you came back undeliverable.
HTH,
Terry B

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Terry B ]</p>

 

[Terry B]

Steve,
You are right that fish do harbor SOME TYPES of parasites without any apparent harm. Most fish have internal parasites all of their lives. However, we cannot lump all parasites into one group and they do not all behave the same way. There are facultative parasites and obligate parasites. We also have to consider that a parasite such as ich is much more problematic in a small glass box than it is in the wild. This is due in part to the much heavier load of fish per volume of space in an aquarium. This makes fish much easier targets for theronts looking for a host. In the confines of an aquarium the population of this parasite can quickly explode in density far beyond anything found in nature.
As far as stress not causing ich this creature behaves nothing like a virus so we are comparing apples and oranges here. Stress does not cause ich Cryptocaryon irritans do. Perfectly healthy and unstressed fish can become infected when the population of this parasite becomes dense in an aquarium. Stress is not always a factor but it does often play a part as it makes fish more susceptible to a full blown infection IF the parasite is present. Maybe someone would care to explain how a tank full of fish that have been severely stressed do NOT come down with ich? A perfect example of this is a power outage or heater failure when the water temperature drops 10 or 20 degrees and the fish still do not get ich. Thermal stress is an especially good example because it can reduce mucus production by 50%
Terry B

 

[MattM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terry B:
<strong>Maybe someone would care to explain how a tank full of fish that have been severely stressed do NOT come down with ich?</strong><hr></blockquote>

That would be beacause Cryptocaryon irritans is not present in that tank.

My point is that if you take 10 average aquarist's tanks and subject them to the aforementioned thermal stress, 9 of them are likely to see an ich outbreak.

I don't question your research or it's conclusions but I do deal with hundreds of the tank-owning public on a daily basis and can tell you that subclinical infestations of cryptocaryon are the rule, not the exception.

In our own systems we quarantine all new arrivals and we use garlic in all regular feedings. We do not see regular ich outbreaks in our tanks, and part of that is IMO thanks to the effects of the garlic. If the occasional fish with a subclinical ich problem makes it out of quarantine and into the main system, it does not blow up into an full-blown outbreak.

While hyposalinity is effective at treating ich, keeping fish in a hyposaline environment continuously would IMO be an additional stressor. With a 2500 gallon holding system composed of many seperate tanks, it is not practical for us to use hyposalinity on an occasional basis. It is, however, easy to take advantage of the observed prophylactic effects of garlic.

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: MattM ]</p>

 

[Steve Richardson]

"Stress does not cause ich Cryptocaryon irritans do."

"Stress is not always a factor but it does often play a part as it makes fish more susceptible to a full blown infection IF the parasite is present."

laugh..obviously. Thats exactly my point Terry, and it seems we agree.

Of course stress is not the vehicle that carries ich thats silly, and not new news. It certainly is a nice motivator however (though not a guarantee... again quite obviously).
_________________
Mercedes Cars

 

[Marty M]

Terry B:
Wouldn't a new fish require hyposalinity or copper treatment during the Q period to guarantee it is not carrying at an unobservable level? Thirty days of quarantine alone would suffice for inverts and corals as long as the Qtank has no fish, but simply observing a new fish is not a sufficient guarantee that it is not carrying. Most people don't notice ich until it's pretty advanced. I agree with everything you have said, but thought this should be brought up. Also, doesn't oodinium have a similar multi stage life cycle but is not affected by hypo? Ich is pretty benign in comparison.
Garlic Thread:
Most of my fish went through full copper treatments followed by an extended quarantine and have been very healthy. Recently I quarantined four new fish for a month then added them to a temporarily annexed refugium that is connected to the main system, for almost two months now. They were an unplanned purchase and were too good to pass up. They were on my list but for a later date when I was prepared for them. I didn't prophylactically treat this group with hypo or copper because I didn't have a non calcareous bio filter that was up to the proper capacity. I thought I did but when I started getting ammonia in the treatment tank I skipped the copper and they went to the refugium right away. Two of them developed ich a few days later. To my horror, two fish in the previously clean main display got it too. Luckily garlic, I believe, saved the day. I used a combination of Kyolic soaked food as well as chopped raw garlic from Polaner. One very peculiar observation is that only the affected fish would eat the chopped garlic and they really devoured it. The others ate the soaked food but ignored the raw garlic. They were all cyst free within a week and still are. It may be cooincidence but I think the raw garlic was more effective. I saw the most improvement immediately after the affected fish ate the raw garlic. And just to clarify, they were isolated or a month before they were introduced to the system through the refugium. I don't consider my system to be clean anymore. All of my stock will be going into a large new tank very soon. I am trying to develop a plan for eliminating parasites from the new set up. It may not be possible at this point because of the high bio load demands.

 

[liquid]

Terry,

Go ahead and post the URL's to that website you mentioned. There's no rules against it here.

Shane

 

[Terry B]

Matt said “That would be beacause Cryptocaryon irritans is not present in that tank.”

This is exactly my point and where Tom and I disagree. He said that ich cannot be eliminated from a system. Some conclude falsely that ich is in every system. My point is that this parasite has to be introduced and yes it can be eliminated from a system and from fish.

“While hyposalinity is effective at treating ich, keeping fish in a hyposaline environment continuously would IMO be an additional stressor.”

There has only been one study done that I am aware of. It was done by Dr. Cheung in 1979. He concluded that bony reef fish could be kept at 16ppt salinity “Indefinitely.” I have personally kept several tanks at a specific gravity of 1.010 for three months at a time without any apparent ill effects. I know that the people at Instant Ocean have kept fish in hyposaline waters much longer and reported no ill effects. If you have been reading my 9 part series on stress in fish then you know that I have a pretty good grasp on the subject of stress in fish. I see little evidence that a low salinity is stressful to fish provided that the salinity remains higher than the internal salinity of the fish. As a matter of fact it is a common practice at fisheries to lower the salinity to relieve the effects from the stress of transport, capture and handling. I am leaning more and more all the time toward quarantining all new fish in hypo salinity. This is not just to treat ich, because hyposaline water can help new fish in other ways as well. This includes recovering normal homeostasis much quicker. It also helps fish to recover their appetite faster.
Terry B

 

[Terry B]

Steve,
It may seem obvious and silly to you but you would be surprised by the nonsense that some people listen to and believe about ich. When I respond to you my answers are based on the fact that many others are reading these posts and they do not understand the "obvious."
Terry B

 

[Terry B]

Marty M,
Marty,
Yes to be absolutely sure that the fish are clean they would have to be treated with hypo or copper before placing them in the display. However, in the majority of cases newly acquired fish will manifest symptoms within 30 days IF they are infected. The reason for this is that these fish have been recently and severely stressed. Under those conditions ich (if present) will usually raise its ugly head and you will see white spots if you are paying attention. It is relatively safe to quarantine a new fish and not treat it at all unless it appears to be infected. In the past I took a “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it” approach and was very successful with it. I realized that treating a new fish with copper was added insurance but copper is stressful in itself. Now I think it is a good idea to go ahead and treat new fish (not sharks or rayfish) with hyposalinity because it is safe and there are other benefits to using it besides being the best treatment for ich.
You are right that Amyloodinium has a similar life cycle to Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium can survive a salinity in a rage as wide as 3-45ppt. Fortunately Amyloodimium is rare to hobbyists compared to Cryptocaryon. Fish infected with Amyloodinium usually die at the wholesale or retail level before they reach the hobbyists. It is a good thing that Amyloodinium is less common because it is far more virulent than Cryptocaryon. The only real treatments for Amyloodinium are copper or chloroquine diphosphate.
I am glad that you feel you are having good luck with garlic but many people are not so fortunate. Even Kelli Jedlicki (the person credited with popularizing garlic treatment for ich) uses hyposalinity rather than garlic when the infection is no longer light.
It is a pretty simple matter to clear a system of ich. All you have to do is either treat that system with hypo salinity, or leave it fishless for 30 days or more, and in that cause move the fish for treatment in another tank. You eliminate the parasite from the tank and also from the fish. After that the only way the tank will get ich again is to reintroduce the parasite
Terry B

 

[Terry B]

OK, if it won't ruffle any feathers I will post the link. http://www.saltwaterfish.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=14
HTH,
Terry B