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Anonymous

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and this "prominent marine biologist" is?

His statements are directly opposite what has been said by Charlie Veron and others at MACNA.
 

Scrooge2

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
there is also no doubt that the hobby causes real damage to reef systems in certain parts of the world. Claims to the contrary just don't ring true.

My problem is that claims on either side are starting to not ring true. The unnamed biologist has a good point that the people defending the hobby usually depend on it, which makes them biased. Of course, the guy quoted doesn't offer any evidence of his view, he just states that we are causing significant damage. Not to mention, who is he and what are his personal biases? What are we to believe? Short of boarding a plane and flying to remote areas of the world to see first hand how are we to know the truth? Until we know the truth are we being unethical in being in this hobby at all?

If only there were some kind of true international group with actual authority to oversee things, but of course they would then have to justify their jobs, and therefore come up with their own bias! Argh, I give up, anyone actually have first hand experience at seeing what the real situation is?

Personally, I believe the aquarium hobby is of insignificant impact on the reefs in nature. Of course, I have a reef aquarium so I'm biased, so disregard my opinion
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Anonymous

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Think of how many posts I have seen in the last 6 months where a newbie asks what kind of Live Rock I should buy and how many answer, Tonga, Fiji, Marshall Island or the next flavor of the month wild harvested.

When all along there is Aquacultered rock available. If people on this board, who have been exposed to conservation efforts to prevent reef damage are so quick to advise some one to buy rock that is unnnecessarily taken from the reefs or reef ruble Than I think it is easy to assume that there is quite a bit of reef damage occuring, most of which is preventable by people in this hobby.
 

olgakurt

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I also worked as a Marine Scientist on ecosystem restoration. I too am tire of hearing we aren't the only problem from the aquarium industry/hobby. Yes, but part of the problem. I have little faith in this hobby and I am hoping for a legislative fix/ban.
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Anonymous

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I have little faith in this hobby and I am hoping for a legislative fix/ban.

Yup, me too. Btw, Scrooge, not sure if it's what you're looking for or not, but you can find a couple of specific examples and numbers in the editorial I did on this site last year.
 

SPC

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We as hobbiest are a part of the problem and the most visible to the average person on the street. No matter what we think, it will all come down to the perception of the average person when the bans begin. I can assure you they will be given plenty of information that shows how much marine life is killed for the aquarium trade, we as hobbiest already know these numbers. We constantly here on these boards "my new fish ate alot but died after 2 weeks", our answer is "it was probably caught with cyanide". Now imagine for a minute that you are not a reef hobbiest and you read this. Would you not think, you mean these people know this and still buy fish? Why do they buy fish caught in this manner? These people must not care, there needs to be a ban.
Steve
 

JoshF

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I don't know if an out and out ban on all imports is yet warranted, but certainly some more regulation. How many times have any of us gone into an aquarium shop and seen fish, corals, etc. that we KNOW are darn near impossible to keep alive? I went into a store once that had a tank with 20 mandarin dragonets, right next to a tank with juvenile Moorish Idols, right across from the tank with the two shark eggs in it... There are so many responsible hobbyists out there, but they are dwarfed by the sheerly ignorant.

There are currently 5718 members on this board. These are people who at the very least want to know more about this hobby and are reaching out for advice. Of these, I'd say maybe 150 are actively trying to set up tanks with as little impact on the environment as possible. I know Olgakurt, James, Eric B., and others have practically pleaded with our fellow hobbyists to practice more ecologically sound reef-keeping yet even on this board I see many posts asking how to keep this shark or that impossible to feed coral, etc. It's so sad to see the the often disgusting mentality of the people who will keep an animal that they KNOW will die in their care. It's just another pretty replaceable bauble.

Now that we've talked about the people who read the newsgroups, etc., think about the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of hobbyists who don't know anything and just go by what the local PetDungeon tells them. "Of course you can keep this alligator and shark in what we call a 'predator tank.' Just throw in some rare Moorish Idols for food once a week and it will be fine."

THAT is why we need regulation. Of course, many hobbyists actually have kept these hard to keep animals. Great, you are the proud owner of the one in 5000 mandarin dragonets that lived! If you actually took the time to research how to set up a tank to keep some rare and difficult animal, then kudos to you. The problem is that many of these darn near impossible animals are simply imported as the norm along with the chromis and the hobbyists don't know any better.

So, set up various classifications of fish and corals. Anyone can buy a chromi or a tank raised anemonefish, but only 100 dragonets are imported a year and you have to be certified to keep them. That way the people who actually learn what to do can still access these beautiful fish and the 50000 others that would be imported only to die could live a few more years in the wild...

And yes, buy as much aquacultured as possible. I don't care if the rock costs three times as much and you don't get EVERY coral you want. If you want more corals and fish, trade with fellow hobbyists. You'll learn more and have access to more inexpensive corals than you could possibly buy.

/step off soap box.

Josh Fox

P.S. My personal bias is that I've spent my three short years in this hobby getting more and more disgusted with the keep and kill attitude prevalent with many people. I'm in the planning stages of a coral propogation facility and aquacultured live sand of all things. So yes, I do have an economic stake in buying aquacultured. If I am tremendously successful as a coral farmer, I might not lose much money each year...
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Anonymous

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I still think the easiest fix is at the wholesale level and not at the LFS level.

<ul type="square">You'd have all of the animals in one place making record keeping easier and inspections easier.

It would fool proof the LFS somewhat. (i.e. making it impossible to buy hard to keep corals on "accident."

You would know where the animal came from thereby allowing those collectors with sustainable practices to be rewarded and those unscrupulous types to be ferreted out.

Quarantines at the wholesale level could be imposed and the loss records could be used to determine a species vialbilty in the trade.[/list]

This of course doesn't solve all problems. An incompetent store owner could kill damsels left and right just like they could anywhere else. Records should be kept of those animals sold and those animals lost and they should come up for a license renewal yearly based on their sell/loss ratio.

My ramblings.........
 

jamesw

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It doesn't matter who it is that said it. Just read it for what it says Tom.

Would your reading of it change if I said it was Sylvia Earle? What about Charlie Veron? What if it was Walt Jaap? Does it really matter?

These folks don't profit if the aquarium trade is legislated, so it is not fair to say they are "biased." Biased is a coral collector saying that his business is sustainable harvest, but not having ONE shred of evidence to demonstrate that.

HTH
James
 

JeremyR

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<<It doesn't matter who it is that said it. Just read it for what it says Tom.
Would your reading of it change if I said it was Sylvia Earle? What about Charlie Veron? What if it was Walt Jaap? Does it really matter?
>>

Still, it's not right to post direct quotes like that without a reference. You really ought to post the source... I'm not saying I think the text is wrong.. but information like that is meaningless if you don't have a reference.
 

LiamD

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James,
While I agree with your sentiments, I feel personally that the threat to habitat is more significant to reef deterioration than legitimate collection for the aquatic industry. Pollution, soil erosion effects, building using coral rock cause untold damage to reefs.
Another thought, I wonder how comparison of tonnage of specimens collected for the aquatic trade Vs tonnage of food items collected from reefs would go.
Still agree with most of what you're saying though; Mandarins, etc.
Liam
 

olgakurt

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What gets me the most is that people can not see it is a cummulative effect and all are part of the problem. If everyone keeps taking half the glass, it won't ever be empty, but it will get pretty darn close.
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Anonymous

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The point is not Who is causing the most damage. But the fact that no matter how hard we try to rationalize we as hobbyist do cause damage to the reef. Without a doubt if the hobby did not exist the reef would be healthier and less "picked over." Sure the food industry has an impact, sure the recreational diving industry has an impact, but so do we. We cannot deny this. The simple fact that we don't cause the most damage does not rationalize the fact that we do cause damage. It is in the best interest of the hobby to minimize the amount of damage we do cause, through sustainable collection practices and harvesting levels as well as through proper shipping methods and holding techniques. Industry reform is neccesary throughout the entire industry from collector to consumer. However, I think the quickest way to effect change is at the collector-->wholesaler level. A lot of the problems fall out there. But that is another debate I guess.

Glenn

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Rover ]</p>
 

LiamD

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Rover,
It's a question of balance. Let's say there's this tree I like which is about to be bulldozed to make way for a bypass. I'd consider it more productive to do something about stopping the road being built than sorting out the tree's Red Spider Mite infestation.
Look at the major issues first that's all i'm saying.
Liam
 
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Anonymous

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I would agree but....Most hobbyist are in a better position to affect the hobby and it's practices than they are to affect global pollution or sedimentation. To say I don't need to change until the big issues are resolved would be ludicrous.

Glenn
 
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Anonymous

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But wouldn't it suck, Liam, if after fighting the local council on the bypass for 10 years and finally winning, you discovered the spider mites had managed to kill the tree in the meantime?
 

SPC

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I for one would sure like to see this thread stay on topic, we are not talking about who is most to blame but what responsibility we as hobbiest have.
I think the key word here is responsibility, can we even begin to debate the other causes of reef destruction until OUR house is in order?
Steve
 
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Anonymous

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Steve

Just from knowing each other personally I think we understand each other better than most on the board.

I completely agree with what you are saying and would absoultely want this to stay on topic.

I think that when people are trying to point out that OTHER factors are contributing to reef destruction MORE than hobbiest, they are displaying exactly what this Thread is an attemp to address. The "Not my fault mentality"
 
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Anonymous

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I am surprised that there is not more information out there coming from wholesalers. These guys would be the first to be affected by any bans and should be the most vocal about bringing about real change. Admittedly my experience with wholesalers is somewhat limited as I have been forced to deal with those the higher ups in my company dictate. But as I am research more into that end of the hobby I am finding more of the same. The guys that I have been ordering from offer no scientific names or even origins in most cases. It's very frustrating.

Glenn
 

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