Not My Fault Mentality

[Gatortailale1]

The truth is hobbyists do impact the reefs. HOWEVER, there are a lot of other factors that impact the reefs as well. The construction industry is one that comes to mind. They harvest and grind up thousands of tons of limestone (Live rock) each year to make cement among other things.

What also needs to be studied more, IMO, is the rate at which the ocean lays down limestone each year. A subpart of this is the honest rate at which reefs expand or shrink each year.

You also need to conduct this study for more than a year. Why? Because there are thousands of factors that can affect the rate reefs grow or shrink (water temp, water quality, el nino, earth's orbit around sun is not perfect, etc.)

Finally, I would like to see some kind of governing body to watch over the collectors. It has been said many times before, but hobbyists know what will live in aquaria. If the message gets passed on to collectors, then less will be collected that will die. I think this could ultimately hold costs down because LFS would have to pay less in shipping (a cost always passed on to consumer) since they don't have to pay shipping costs on junk that will die.

Anyway, lets nominate James W.; Dr. Mac. and Atlantis to head up a lobby group. These gentlemen know a little something about what can be kept in aquaria. Maybe they can knock some sense into those who need to learn what to collect.

 

[jamesw]

Interesting thought Gator.

Guess what?

One of our Operators (Bill2) just got back from a month in Fiji, where he was educating the collectors on what to collect and what not to - and WHY.

What a cooincidence eh? We actually practice what we preach.

Cheers
James

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: jamesw ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

What organization is he with??

Glenn

 

[Gatortailale1]

James W.

Now that is the 2nd best news I have had in the last 2 weeks. The other being the birth of my first child, a girl - Haley - on the 19th.

I'm happy to know that people are taking action to make changes and not just talking about what can be done.

On that note, I think I'll punch out of work for the week and go home and down a few mugs of ale in front of the tank.

 

[tazdevil]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

The construction industry is one that comes to mind. They harvest and grind up thousands of tons of limestone (Live rock) each year to make cement among other things.

That is just wrong, especially since they have figured out how to make cement from trash!(imagine that, landfills would start to disappear, or at least not increase in size!). They can even make faux marble from it, that apparently is just about as tough as marble is, at 1/8th the price.

 

[Gatortailale1]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tazdevil:
<strong>
That is just wrong, .</strong><hr></blockquote>

Taz, that might be the case in this country, but over in Fiji, and other countries not as advanced, they still harvest it for construction.

Source: Gentleman who runs a LFS and gave a talk at my local club talked about the pounds/tons of rock harvested for hobby vs. amount harvested for construction. Construction blew hobby away by about 100xs the amount.

I'm not saying this hobby is innocent, but there are other factors that damage reefs just as bad or worse than hobby demand.

Thanks to James and others, something is starting to happen - education of collectors!

 

[tazdevil]

Thank god for that !, just think, if we lost all the reefs in the world, what an ecological disaster that would cause, and, in the end, might contribute, or even cause, the end of life as we know it. Food chain totally disrupted, reefs gone that break up massive waves, possibly the biggest carbon dioxide "sink" lost, the list goes on and on.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the point of the original post was it doesn't matter that construction destroys the reef, whether it be 100x more or 1000000x more. The point is no matter how you slice it this hobby hurts the reef. Rather than pointing towards other causes we need to look at ourselves and find solutions.

The paradox is that a hobby that celebrates the beauty and grandeur of the reef also contributes to its demise. Until we are not affecting the reef at all or are actually providing some benefit to the reef the hobby is hypocritical in my point of view.

We have no control over the construction companies or the food fisherman, but the fact remains that the ocean would be better off if you did not have a chunk of it in your living room.

Glenn

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Rover ]

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Rover ]</p>

 

[tazdevil]

Good point, and one way to contribute, as I think was brought up, is to buy aquacultured corals only. BTW has anyone heard of any breakthroughs with the rearing of centropyges? I know there have been succesful spawnings, but, no one has made it past the fry stage with them. Does anyone know if this has changed?

 

[Anonymous]

Slimey

Are you for real?

CONSERVATION GROUPS ARE BIASED TO KEEP THEM SELVES IN BUSINESS

Who are you speaking of?

I have been affliate with Conservation International, World Wildlife Fund and before they started tree spiking Green Peace.

Almost all the members of these groups, most notable the leaders are volunteers.

What business are they trying to maintain?

I have known many of the people involved and they give their time and professional services free.

Your little conspiracy theory is a bit wacked.

 

[esmithiii]

Last time I commented on this issue I got blasted bad, so I will keep my comments to this:

Gatortailale - congratulations on the birth of your daughter, Hailey. Other than marrying my wife, the birth of my little boy was probably the most significant event ov my whole life yet. I am excited for you!

Ernie

 

[Dargason]

I usually avoid these things, but I got bored today and read some of it... now I feel compelled to comment.

I don't know if the hobby causes damage to the reefs or not -- I haven't seen any studies -- but I'm willing to accept that it does.

Arguments that I see some people make that "other industries are worse" are completely irrelavent. It's a bit like saying it's OK for me to shoplift since some people are committing armed robbery.

On the other hand, a thriving hobby could be the best thing for the reefs -- assuming we buy captive bred stock. The more money that goes into understanding how to propegate reef fish and corals, the safer those organisms will be from all threats, including the hobby.

Vote with your dollars and buy captive bred.

 

[Karm40]

Hi, I'm new here, but I have kept fish for over 30 years off and on. Currently my 200 gallon reef is cycling.
For anyone to think that our hobby doesn't cause any degradation to the reefs of the world, is naive. From dynamite, to cyanide to experts skillfully removing corals from the reefs, these methods are all degrading the reefs.
I have been to wholesalers numerous times and pulled fish out of overflow boxes that were sitting in 1/4 inch of water trying to survive.
It's a question of what are we willing to tolerate. But, it is obvious that through aquaculture, we can minimize our impact.
I for one am already spending a rediculous amount of money to be in this hobby, so spending a couple more bucks to be tank raised animals, is no big deal. And through this, the diversity will increase allowing us to have access to more and different creatures.
But, what do I know?
Mark
(searching for aquacultured Blue Tangs)

 

[esmithiii]

Mark,

I am pretty sure that there are no aquacultured tangs. You will have to stick to anemonefish and cardinals.

Ernie

 

[SPC]

Check out Inland Aquatics website, they have many different fish that are tank bred and tank raised, including tangs.

Steve

 

[esmithiii]

SPC- I just did. No tangs. Gobies: yes, anemonefish: yes, Dottieback: Yes, Angels: Yes (one), Gobies: Yes, Tangs: No.

My understanding was that for most surgeonfish, they need so much room to mate that few have been known to spawn in captivity. I could totally be wrong, however. I would love to see them tank raised.

They do have captively reared tangs, however. This is a different ballgame.

Ernie

 

[SPC]

Ernie, I was including captivly reared in my statement, IMO these fish would be much healthier than wild caught. This equates to less tang deaths in the hobbiest fish tanks.
Steve

 

[esmithiii]

I concur that they are better, and possibly cause less ecological disruption to the reefs.

My bad for jumping to conclusions and not being clearer.

Ernie

 

[MaryHM]

Just for the record, and because I particulary like chastising James,

James failed to mention that Bill2's trip to Fiji was on my behalf. I am an importer/wholesaler who strives to do everything in the most ethical and sustainable way I can. You can read more about our Fiji project at www.reefsource.com (yes, I know there are broken links and they will be fixed during the next update in a couple of weeks).

 

[Anonymous]

I guess this is why Mary still thinks that the right thing to do is keep collecting with absolutly no regulations

Also still cannot see why a wholesaler has a conflict of intrest in becomeing involved in the legislation of anmals that they are selling.

I am not saying that wholesalers should not subscribe to a very strict ethics, but the only time I see Mary posting is to plug herself and her business.

I have yet to see her give anyone some advice like buying aquacultered rock or tank raised fish, of course that would hurt exporting fish and liverock.

By the way How did that defeating of the caulerpa ban in California go that you wanted to take credit for?