20 gallon sump question

[CCM]

Hello All,
Long time reader of this board, (if it wasn't for all of you I wouldn't have a reef). Anyway, I have a 55 gallon and we all know the problems with space under the tank for a sump. I was wondering if a 20 gallon would fit under the tank. If so would a classic Berlin be too big for that size sump (these Berlins are huge, but I got a great deal on one and I want to get rid of the seaClone I have now). Anyone that has a sump under their 55 gallon please help. My tank looks great but would look better without the skimmer and heater hanging off it.

 

[CCM]

c'mon Guys/Gals I need some help here.

 

[VC]

A 20 long is 12x12x30 I am not sure it will fit thru the doors of your stand without knowing what kind of stand you have.With that said if you can get it in there the Berlin Classic Will fit a 20gal no problem.
You say the classic is huge are you sure it is a classic and not a Berlin XL? The reason I ask is
the classic are not that big.

Vince

 

[waterloomarc]

CCM,

I have a 55 with a 20 gallon sump under my stand. Mine fits. How big is your stand? Custom made or storebought? Does it have a back on it?

My only complaint is that there isn't a lot of vertical space with the regular 20. I have to sit on the floor and squeeze my arm in to work in there. If I had my time back I would have build it 6" higher.

-Marc

 

[CCM]

my stand has one door in the middle. I'm wondering if I could squeeze it in there. Or should I go with a 10 gallon but wouldn't there be a lot of bubbles going in the tank? I really hope I can fit a 20 in there, maybe a 15 so I can put in dividers to get rid of bubbles and fit the skimmer. Its a Berlin classic, not the XL, I think. But it sems pretty big to me. I might as well ask what is the better pump for them?

 

[waterloomarc]

If it only has one door it ought to be pretty big right? How far out from the wall does your stand sit? It you've got a couple of inches behind there you can stick the 20 in and turn it.

The 10 would work but it would probably require you putting in a baffle or two to eliminate the bubbles.

Are you planning on have a section to grow caleurpa etc in there, or is it strictly going to be for hiding equipment and such? A 10 would be too small for anything other than equip. External return pump or internal?

 

[CCM]

Internal pump for the returna and for the Skimmer I want to see my options. If I have to get a 10 gallon I will go with the external and that way it won't take up all the room in the sump. I have no room behind the tank. The stand has about 3inch space for the electric cords to go thru. The door is about 24" wide.

 

[waterloomarc]

You should be able to fit the 20 in there. Just make sure you can return the thing if I'm wrong

Sorry I don't have much knowledge of the Berlin skimmers and don't know what type of pump to use with them. You may want to give some thought to buying a bigger pump and using it to power both the return and the skimmer as this will save even more space. Use a wye or a tee to divert water to the sump (and gate valve of course) and if you use the tee mount it flat so that the water must go to either side. Of curse this is suggested without any knowledge of flow requirements for the Berlin. Just something else to think about...could also save some bucks too.

 

[waterloomarc]

Don't give up on the 20 yet. Measure it to be sure, your's doesn't sound like the usual 55 stand. What brand is it anyway? I've never seen one like that before...

The Ampmaster is a great choice for power consumption, I also hear that they are great for customer service. I would tend to think that it may be overkill though, of course that's just off the cuff. As I said before I have no idea how much flow the Berlin needs. If it needs a lot and you keep a lot of livestock that needs high flow then you're set!

Anyway, as for the tee....I meant to tee off the return. Although some people to feed the skimmer from the overflow, I think that you would need more pressure than can be built up over a 3 foot drop. Generally I think people who gravity feed their skimmers have their equipment in their basements ie. 10 foot drops. Could be wrong though.

I use the same pump to return to my tank and skimmer. It works well. The one drawback is that it takes a lot of tuning to get it right. But once you have it set it's great.

One more thing, whatever you decide to do be sure you put unions on you pump(s) and whatever else. This will make it super easy to take them out for cleaning. I didn't do this when I first set up my system, mainly because the Home Depot didn't stock them, and the first time I had to take the pump out....well not a pretty sight. Suffice it to say they're there now. Those things are great!!

 

[CCM]

I called a store that supplies them and they stated that the skimmer requires 400 GPH. He also stated that not to go too much higher since it over flow the skimmer. So now I'm thinking of getting a total 800 GPH. So not to take away from the skimmer. I'm so confused. Maybe 1000 GPH. I also liked the idea of the tee return.

 

[dbman]

I actually happen to be running a 55 with a 20 long sump and an ampmaster 3000 running my tank and skimmer. What a coincidence! I will say that the Ampmaster is entirely more pump than I need and the valves going to my tank return and my skimmer are both only about 1/3 open but it works very nicely at that. The ampmaster is very quiet... but it is a quiet 3000 gph pump... so it will make more noise than you would expect from a 55g tank. I just got this set up a week ago and I'm liking it a lot.

You can see pics of it at:

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/db_manning/lst?.dir=/SUMP&.view=t

Just make sure you get a 20 long / breeder tank and it should fit fine. You can see that I put in two partitions of 1/4" acrylic to separate the inflow from the tank, a refugium section, and the area where the skimmer and return line to the ampmaster sits.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: dbman ]</p>

 

[CCM]

I'm thinking of getting a 1000 GPH external pump. Is there alot of bubbles comming from the skimmer going into the tank.

 

[waterloomarc]

I've got a Mag 9.5 on mine. It's quiet and moves a lot of water. I run the output from my skimmer back into the sump on the other side of my baffles, so the bubbles are eliminated there.

I'm home now and I just checked the width of my doors. Each one in 18.75", and I've got 5 inches" of space behind my stand. But my 20g (which I think is standard size) is only slightly longer than 24" so I don't see why you would have a problem getting one in your stand.

Keep in mind that if you go with an external pump you will have to drill the sump and fit in with a bulkhead to feed the pump. Most are not capable of sucking the water out of the sump. An external will also be louder. All more things to think about....

 

[CCM]

Waterloom, you have been a great help. I'm confused when you stated you have the output of the skimmer going back into the sump. So you have two pumps? one for the skimmer and one for the return?

 

[dbman]

For what it's worth, my sump is not drilled - the ampmaster does a fine job of pulling water over an inverted u-shaped pipe; it starts and re-starts with no difficulty.

My skimmer (Oceanic Plus 6) doesn't pass any bubbles through its output so I'm not very helpful on any bubble-management issues.

In my case the pump pulls water from 1 1/4" PVC pipe out of the sump; the pump output is also 1 1/4" and has two 3/4" flexible tubes splitting from this; one goes back to the tank and the other goes to the skimmer which outputs directly into the sump. I figure the way I'm set up I'm pushing around 500-600 gph to the tank and no idea how much through the skimmer - just adjusted until the water level seems right. So far it's working way better than when it was running off the included eheim powerhead.

 

[waterloomarc]

No, I just have the one pump running my skimmer and my return. My skimmer is a hang on type because, as you, I didn't start out with a sump on my system. So, I tee off my return and run a short length of pipe to my skimmer on the opposite side of the sump. Since it hangs on the back, only the output hangs over and drops the water back in the sump by the overflow water from the tank. So from there, all the bubbles are eliminated together. By the way that's the reason my stand is 5" away from the wall, to allow room for the skimmer. It's too bad I don't have a digital camera, if I did I would post some pics...it'd make this a lot easier

Dbman, thanks for correcting me about the drilling. I had been told that there were very few pumps that could pull the water. Or perhaps I just misread...I wanted a submersible anyway

 

[Joey1]

I have a 55 with a 20 gallon sump that I kind of rigged,but it works perfectly...I found that the stand that i wanted had supports on front and back side that made it just a little too narrow for a 20 long,so I built a little shelf that lies on the top of the inside of the door frame and the back of the frame stand before I put it all together,with adequate support,and then,painted it all the same color.So,in essence the sump sits off the bottom about 4 1/2 inches,and there is still plenty of room above this for taller skimmers or whatever.The only problem with this setup is that it would be a royal pain to get the sump out if there are any problems,as I have a 2 door stand,with no way to get it out unless I cut the center brace out from between the two doors,or empty the main tank,and slide it forward to remove it from the back.But,it can be done,with a little work,I've had no problems yet...

Joey

 

[CCM]

wow, I never thought you could use the same pump for the return as well as the Skimmer. That would save a ton of space and money. When you say a Tee, do you mean when the water is comming from the over-flow into the sump? Will this help with bubbles going back into the tank. Then again if I could use the same pump as the Skimmer for the return, it wouldn't matter. Has anyone ried using the same pump for both?

 

[Colonel]

I have a 55 and most stands for that size have a brace in the center of the back, and in the center for 2 doors or on each side of the door for a single dooe. If you measure there will only be 11 or 11 1/4 inched between the braces and this will not fit a 12 inch 20 gallon long. Beleive me I tried, as I also want a 20 gallon sump, but had to settle for a 10, and it is too crowded.

 

[CCM]

Dam, Then I guess I'll have to settle with a 10 gallon but the good news is I can get only 1 pump for both return and skimmer. Now my question would be what size pump for both since i have to conserve space. I was looking at the Dolphin Aqua Sea Amp Master 3000, but that seems to be a little much for just a skimmer and return. any suggestions? I do appreciate this. You can't get this kind of help from a pet store.