I need your help for a new project... and your $$$

[rshimek]

Hi,

Well... first, the name is Shimek...

There are really two thrusts to this project, and by the by, it will be going. As of last night, enough people have indicated they would participate to give the "volume discount. The $175 covers the lab costs (normally about $250 for the analysis - but with the volume discount, a lot less) plus some postage.

Anyway -

The first goal is to statistically construct an average reef tank. Obviously, as with all "average" things this will be unlike any particular tank, but it will provide a starting point for discussions of just what exactly is in a reef tank, and what kind of variability there is.

Depending on the number of participants, the ages of their systems, the number of water changes, etc., all sorts of other questions may be addressed, - or simply asked and wondered about.

Finally, the fundamental working hypothesis to be tested is: "Do any of these materials build up to toxic or near toxic concentrations through time?"

For example, in all salt mixes tested by Atkinson and Bingman (in their 1999 article in Aquarium Frontiers) Cadmium concentrations were very high relative to natural sea water. Cadmium is very toxic to virtually all marine organisms. I would like to get some handle on how this and other like substances vary in our tanks.

We have all heard of "old tank syndrome" or "tank wipeout." My suspicion is that these "maladies" are caused by the build up of toxic trace metals.

But, I may be wrong. This will provide an opportunity to test that, as well as some other things.

I hope you all can participate. I understand the costs are high, and I would certainly cover them myself if I could, but I can't. On the other hand, if we learn from this study that, for example, you should do regular and massive water changes to prevent the build up of some of these chemicals, the cost of the study may have gone to saving the replacement costs of your animals that would have otherwise died from "unexplained" causes.

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: rshimek ]

 

[billybob]

Seems to me it's a moot point unless we all have a reliable cadmium test kit

 

[rshimek]

Hi,

Cadmium isn't the only metal of concern.

If we can find if these metals build up, then we can possibly convince salt makers to change their formulations. Alternatively, we can know that we must change water periodically simply to reduce the build of materials that comes with feeding, etc.

On the other hand, maybe we don't need to...

 

[jamesw]

Hi Guys,

I think another point of this study is that we DON'T have a reliable or AFFORDABLE cadmium test (for example), so for a low one-time cost, we can get a LARGE sample set of data via the study Dr. Ron is doing. Dr. Ron and a lab of his choice does the testing so WE don't have to.

I for one have lost a tank to "old tank syndrome" and I long suspected that I had a buildup of copper or some other metal in my rocks and sand. Now perhaps I can findout...

Cheers
James

 

[skylsdale]

First of all Dr. R, my apologies on the name thing--it was late(or early, depending on how you look at it) when I typed up that last post. Coincidentally, my user name is one of the many ways in which people screw mine up constantly...darn Scandinavian heritage

.

Second, I thank you for answering my question. I'm not against experiments, research, etc... I just wanted to know what the reasons were behind it and what problems were arising that had beckoned your interest to it in the first place. Simple question, and I thank you for your simple answer

.

If my up-front nature or foot-in-my-mouth syndrome offended anyone, tough

. My questions were directed toward Dr. R, and if you were somehow offended by them, you need to thicken up your skin a little bit. He's a grown man and I don't think my frankness ruffled his feathers all that much. I don't beat around the bush. I ask questions until I get it right, no matter how stupid or dull I may come across.

 

[pez]

Some one mentioned this is not government supported research. With all the talk of banning coral exports, I don't see any reason why the government shouldn't belly up to the bar and spend some serious $$ on something like this. Clearly the coral reef task force (or some government agency, US or otherwise) should be investigating methods of propagation and captive raised corals. If we do have an "old tank syndrome", then the government should fund research into determining the validity of such a syndrome. Has anyone actually tried to get funding for such a project? (you don't have to tell me about the time and effort it takes to get research money - I am all to familiar with the way the government operates). $0.02.

-Tom

 

[Chucker]

Here's a thought.....

What chance is there that besides submitting the samples of tank water, the participants could also send in a small sample of the salt mix they are currently using (to save weight) or some freshly mixed saltwater? Then there'd be a baseline of sorts for each tank sample.

 

[percula]

Chucker, you also have to factor in the local water... maybe different... also, the age of your ro/di determines what its still taking out...

 

[skylsdale]

OK...but just one sample at one random time doesn't seem like a very consistent measurement to me. It's one snap out of a timeline of a tank setup. And let's say we get the results...you get your name in lights and recognition of a job well done, I get a piece of paper back showing all these really neat percentages of chemicals...then what happens? Big synthetic salt companies try to increase all their major and minor elements to make it the "closest thing to actual seawater you can buy"? They then make it close, but not quite--ending in the conclusion we had in the first place: our tanks are poor comparisons to the quality of life these organisms experienced on the reef.

Granted, it's research like this that has helped us to understand our tanks more and provide a better quality environment for inhabitants. But are these small details going to really rocket this hobby that much farther?

 

[jamesw]

Skysdale,

I don't like your tone. Ron is asking for donations for his project. If you don't want to donate, then don't donate. It's as simple as that.

As far as looking for accurate measurements of tank water composition over time, Alf Nilsen gave a presentation at WMC 98 (yes, I wa there) where he did just that. He kept a tank for a year, adding nothing but RO water and took very accurate measurements. I would look into that if you are interested.

Cheers
James Wiseman

 

[ging]

MACNA XIV NEXT year in Dallas/Ft. Worth.
Whooo hoooo, cool

Does it matter how old your tank is ??

ging

 

[Chucker]

perc- Far as I'm concerned, in this case something is better than nothing. Testing a fresh batch of saltwater from each participant, and comparing the readings to the current levels in the tank allows one to see a start point. Otherwise, each tank sample is really just a lone datapoint. Besides, if one's salt contains a relatively high amount of chromium for example, I'd be very curious to see how much is concentrated. Likewise, it's be just as interesting to find a high lead level where there is almost none in the water being used for changes. That make more sense?

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Chucker ]

 

[thereefzone]

Dr. Ron,

Have you tried to get any money form the salt companies to help with this test? It seems that if they could learn how to make their salt better from these tests they would want to help fund your research, it would help them sell more salt.

Just a thought.

Thanks for helping to advance our hobby!

 

[Bobzarry]

I think recieving money from one of the salt companies would be a bad idea!! Most of us here Know Dr.Ron's great rep ....but others may think results funded by a salt company to be biased.'

Just my 2¢


Bob

 

[rshimek]

Hi,

Chucker, the tests need to be run on the tank water. So much could be there, beyond what is in the salts, consider foods, additives, etc....

I thought about testing some salts as well, but the costs are a problem.

Talking about getting corporate or government support is one thing - actually getting it, and the ramifications of getting it are another. I don't mind support from interested supportive companies who don't make any of the potential products this study would impact, but support from either salt manufacturers or additive makers could seem self-serving and a conflict of interest. And actually some corporate folks have talked to me briefly - but nothing has been agreed upon.

Government grants are a royal PITA to get, administer and report on, and as I am doing the research as a private individual rather than a university prof, such grants are effectively impossible to obtain.

However, if this kind of project is something you would like to see pursued, perhaps some of you could help put a bit of pressure on MASNA or some other aquarist organisation to fund similar projects. Or... you could ask your local aquarium society to donate money to the cause, etc.

 

[danmhippo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by billybob:
<STRONG>Seems to me it's a moot point unless we all have a reliable cadmium test kit

</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is something to be seen from studies like this. Of course, if there indeed are a necessity to test those "other parameters", I am sure there will be companies willing to mass produce the test kits due to high demands. Going back to the old economics of supply and demand.

 

[cubera]

We are really looking forward to the results of this study. Seems to me there is other reliable information available-- Dr. Shimek mentions Dr. Bingman-- that could blend with new information to some degree and provide explanations as to why highly successful systems all of a sudden **** the bed. Not to mention the financial devastation of our tanks dropping a load, what about the animals in the systems? IMO $175 plus some postage is pretty cheap for the potential return.

 

[Anonymous]

Just to stir things up a bit -- so to speak, Cd forms insoluble oxides at pH 8 and above, so it, like copper, could be one of those elements just waiting to cause trouble when it re-solubilizes in a pH-dependent manner. So it might actually be useful (at risk of expanding the scope of the investigation) to also test substrate samples. What is true of cadmium is true of most of the softer heavy metal ions, almost all of which are rather toxic.

 

[Anonymous]

The problem is that each individual test is $175-250. Thus each participant would have to pay $175 for the tank water sample, $175 for the Salt sample and $175 for the substrate sample. I don't think too many people are gonna want to pay $525 each.

I think at least knowing what salt is being used by each sample would be useful however during the data analysis.

 

[EmilyB]

Well, I don't know. I guess personally, I don't think I need a study to tell me that frequent water changes are beneficial and necessary. So maybe this is more for you boys who hate doing the whole water change thing....