Help! Why can't I keep fish alive???

[BradB]

Any new advice or ideas would be much appreciated. Since starting a 120-gallon reef tank 4 months ago, I have had very bad 'luck' with fish. I have added 37 fish, of which only 18 still live. These are mostly small fish added slowly - the tank never could be called overstocked. Ironically, the only fish I have had real success with are Anthias (8 or 9 of the 10 I tried) - most of the dead species are far hardier. In contrast, I have lost only 1 of 24 corals.
Just this weekend, 2 large healthy tangs (Regal and Clown), after 1 week in my tank, simply disappeared. Both just started eating flake, appeared healthy and were adapting well to their new home right up until they vanished. Several other healthy fish have died/disappeared at times.
Most of my fish deaths I attributed to aggression, and in many cases this was obvious. I blamed aggression for ALL my dead fish until about 2 weeks ago. The tangs were by far the largest and most aggressive fish present, so they died for another reason.
The only major water parameter off target is calcium (200-250), even though I add about 1 gallon of kalkwasser / day. I have good coral and coralline growth, which is probably sucking it up faster than I douse. Ammonia/Nitrate/Nitrate ~0, PH swings from 7.8 to 8.2. All of my corals are fully expanded and doing well (exception: 3 new acro frags bleached, will probably recover).
I can eliminate: Jumping, being sucked into pumps, being eaten, major water parameters and starvation - from almost ever death. Being sudden, and not affecting other fish, I can eliminate most parasites, diseases, and toxins. My LFS is also very picky about suppliers, and several of the fish were at the LFS over a week before.
Do you know of anything that could immediately kill healthy looking fish, while letting my corals expand and grow so well, without affecting major water parameters, and not affecting the rest of my fish the slightest? Everyone advised me to keep fish only first, since they are so much easier. Maybe I should do corals only first, since they are so much easier.

 

[nhan]

Hi. A 120G is a nice size tank but still not large enough to hold 37 fish even if you add them slowly or buy them small. Tangs are very aggressive toward there own type and require lots of swimming space. I think that many fish will stress them out and cause a healthy fish to die quickly or increase their aggression toward each other resulting in fights and injury. HTH

 

[gazpep]

If you are not seeing any obvious symptoms of disease etc then I would suggest that mysterious disappearances are consistent with some sort of predation. Are you sure you don't have a Mantis shrimp in there ?. Do you ever hear loud cracking sounds after lights out ?. Mantis will attack fish and between them and the scavengers in the tank there will not be much left of them after a day or two.

 

[Anonymous]

Well it is a daunting question but certainly solvable.
So I'll start the ball rolling.
At 4 months your tank is certainly immature for all the fish you've been adding even though you've said it has been done slowly.
What exactly are the other fish in the tank ?
What types of fish have died, i.e names ( genus and species will help ) not just Tangs, Clowns, Anthias, etc.
How are you acclimating them ?
Are you quarantining them?
One week in a LFS doesn't say much.
What are you feeding besides flake ?
What filtration do you have ?
Sandbed ? Live rock ? How much ?
What temp ? Are there temp swings ?
I'm sure there are other questions I missed that others will pipe up with but this will but answers to these questions will help.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[BradB]

nhan:

I realize the 37 fish in a 120 would be pushing it - if they all lived. I don't have that problem. The tank has been at best moderately stocked. And, as you said, agression would result in fights and injury, rather than healthy fish happy with there tankmates simply vanishing.


gazpep:

I said I ruled out the fish being eaten. A predator doesn't suddenly eat 2 large fish after going weeks without touching many small ones (which would be easy prey for a mantis shrimp or other predator at night).


Thanks

 

[danmhippo]

More questions.

Are you using any additives besides Calcium? Do you have test kits telling you if you under dose, or over dose the additives?
You said you added 1 gal of Kalk daily, How do you add them into the tank? Drip, or dump?
Have you noticed any sudden PH, Alk, or Temp swings? Have you ever had the chance to test for them?
Have your tank actually finished cycling? What is the current ammonia and nitrite readings?

 

[Lunchbucket]

so how much LR, LS, what filtration, temp swings.

give us more details
would like to help but too vauge to answer

later
Lunchbucket

 

[BradB]

naesco:

Your fish are dying because you are not giving them a chance to live.
This is not a flame it is a fact which unfortuneatley most new reefers experience so don't feel badly. Others can cover the water perameters and stuff I will help you with the livestock if you want me to.
Here's the deal. We will try to keep as many of the fish you already have alive.
First of all under no circumstances whatsoever should you add anything further to your tank. It will just compound the problem.

Oh boy! I won't feel badly (I asked for new ideas), but please avoid blanket statements and try to be objective, and give reasons for your advice, explanation. Again, I feel crowding is a non-issue.


What livestock is still alive?

See my reply to David Mohr


Which ones are not eating? Thin? Bloated?
Is there any evidence of ich on any fish?

Nothing of the sort


What and how much and how often are you feeding them.

Mostly flake, with some wet/frozen stuff for variety. I feed 2-3 times a day, the fish quickly eat everything, and bioligical filtration is good.


Are you prepared to take some of them back to the LFS or give/sell them to friends if necessary? Which ones would you like to keep

No, not without explination.


Do you have a 10 gal that you could use for medication if necessary?

Yes, but this isn't relevant, the fish were healthy.


In any event in the morning go buy some garlic extract(pure) from a health food store, some Selcon and a bottle of GreenX which you can use if necessary in the 10 gallon for ich.

I have these on stock (except the GreenX), again, these couldn't have helped.


Get some dried nori (unflavoured) from an Asian store.

How will that help?

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: BradB ]

 

[EmilyB]

Oxygenation ?

 

[BradB]

davidmohr

I don't really know if coral or fish stand up amonia/nitrite/nitrate poisoning better. However this is irrelevant, none of these substances are present in enough quantity to affect either coral or fish adversely.

 

[BradB]

EmilyB:

Oxegenation?

Please elaborate. I never considered this. Would fish that hide, stay lower, or move less be more effected? Can this be measured or observed? Does it fluctuate enough? Is it an issue in a 120 with 600gph return, dual corner overflows, and EV90 skimmer? Does this relate to water chemistry, air chemistry or flow?

 

[Anonymous]

I seldom back away from threads but on this one I will after this post.

You are trying to keep the rouges gallery of Surgeon fish/and others ( i.e. the more difficult to keep ):
Paracanthus hepatus
Acanthurus lineatus
and this is in an immature tank feeding only flake food.
Synchiropus splendidus also in an immature tank. I wont comment any further other then you can maybe check behind the tank though I doubt it's there.
Pearly Jawfish and Watchman Goby, I would say check behind your tank as they are prone to jump out.
Pseudanthius sp. on flake food and mysid shrimp, no comment.
As far as Chromis viridis attacking other fish, I find that's highly doubtful.
On the other comment, most corals can easily withstand high/fluctuating A/N/N levels better then any fish.
Again, I'll leave this thread to others regretfully.

David Mohr

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: davidmohr ]

 

[EmilyB]

BradB, hopefully a more scientific person than I can answer those questions more appropriately. It seemed to be a possibility to me, not really knowing your system. I have tons of water falling through the air on my large tank. I know these days, many silence their tank to the point of often eliminating oxygen introduction to the water. It can be measured, I believe...is that ReDox ?, someone help me out here

DO meter. Don't know anything about them myself. Surface agitation, and movement of water to the surface for agitation, very important. Do you have lots of that ?

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: EmilyB ]

 

[naesco]

In the library found at the beginning of this site there is an excellent article on Anthias by Scott Michael.
Read it.
Hopefully you can save the Anthias.

 

[SPC]

Brad, this is not a flame, although you might take it that way, but for your livestocks sake I will post this. You asked for help, some very caring and knowledgeble people tried to help, one of these people who has vast experience with marine life left the post. Maybe one of the reasons you have had so many fish deaths can be found in this fact.
Steve

 

[Joe_B]

Hey there,
I would usually stay out of a post like this because they tend to get ugly. In this case however I feel it is important to add my 2 cents. BradB - please consider the addvice offered in this thread very carefully - there are lives at stake! I have been reading this board for about 1 year and have learned who's advice is sound - davidmohr's posts are pretty thoughtful and informative - learn from his experience! GOODLUCK with your tank and happy reefing.

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: Joe_B ]

 

[ophiuroid]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Again, dead fish don't count toward tank capacity. There were never 30+ live fish in the tank at once.

BradB,
People are trying to help here, and you are avoiding their primary point. Nobody is trying to flame, but maybe I'll risk it and be more blunt, for the sake of more fish. Dead fish don't count toward tank capacity, of course, they are a red flag that something is going wrong, and it is time to ease off on stocking! Either the fish are being aggressive and killing each other (such displays usually do not result in death- if it happens repeatedly, there is something very wrong, IMO), or they are dying mysteriously- either way, it is a sign you need to cut back. Your explanation for returning fish to the LFS is this- you need to cut back on stocking, and some of the fish are too specialized to live in your tank at the moment!

One fish dies, OK, that happens...two fish die...hmmm...what is going wrong...three fish die without good cause, Whoa! Something is wrong! Frankly, it should not have taken the death of 30 fish to start looking for answers! Sorry, but these are animals and the brakes should have been put on awhile ago...why your LFS kept selling them to you is beyond me (except, of course, to sell expensive specimens), so I would be wary of putting much confidence in them.

As for your corals, don't be too confident about them either...they can sometimes take months to slowly die off and it is sometimes pretty hard to see distinct changes in behavior to let you know something is wrong. Do you have previous experience with corals? Some are pretty tough to keep as well....again, I am stunned your LFS sent so many out the door so quickly.

The explanation of other posters appears to be the same as mine. A helluva lot of bioload was added quickly to a *very* young tank....even remotely close to a "moderate" stocking of fish at this young age would be a potential (and in this case real) disaster. IMO, when a reefkeeper reaches what they consider a 'moderate' stocking, they have way overstocked the tank. It is a common mistake, and we are just trying to make the point- initially gently- now a bit more bluntly.

I would recommend attempting to add a few hardy fish and corals in such a short period (eg mushrooms), but never the species or numbers quoted (eg 8 of **10** Anthias survived).

People have said many times, the key to this hobby is patience, patience, patience (and read, read, read)!!! Your LFS is picky about suppliers, but not picky about selling many delicate fish to a very young tank. Please keep that in mind. What is their warranty like? I question if there is one, as they wouldn't have been so willing to send those fish out the door when clearly their is a problem with the tank (it is too young). Nearly all of those fish should be added to a tank much more mature than a few months old, IMO, if they are ever added as many are quite difficult.

They are specialized species, and you should look further into your feeding...variety is not flake and frozen basics like mysids- there are more specialized formulations that are *necessary* for fish health (do you add any additional nutrients?). They are not getting it. For example, I often hear of people feeding their tangs frozen brine as their primary diet. Not even close to their natural diet.

While some are pleased when fish start eating flake, I get concerned, because such general formulations are not right for the variety of specialized fish we keep. Because it is easy and clean, it becomes the staple food. Damsels and flake? OK, but not most of the others listed. Splurge on getting good foods, or make your own.

Other questions to consider to see if we can't hunt down something more insidious:

Have you checked for other compounds, such as phosphate?
Do you use RO water or tap?
How did you cycle the tank and how long did the cycle take?
How many fish were added when the tank finished the cycle?
What is your ideal number of fish (what were you shooting for initially)?

Look at it again- if the tank took 4-6 weeks to cycle, you added a *lot* of stuff in about 3 months (24 corals, lots of fish (18 is a lot of fish, inverts?). I think the answer may just be laying off buying any fish for a good long time....many months...and let the tank 'grow up' a little bit.

Again, IMO, what many consider to be 'understocked' tanks may very well already be 'overstocked.' Just give the tank some time, and read about some species better suited to the tank. Get one in a few months.

You may wish to consider more circulation, a few additional powerheads in the tank (though perhaps you have them already in the tank, in addition to the return?), but I don't think it would be oxygen related, as the fish would act differently. Your corals will like the circulation...but others would probably know more about this.

Everyone gets really excited about the variety of fish and corals that we can get now, and it must be difficult to hold back with such a big, beautiful, and seemingly empty tank. But to enjoy reefkeeping for a long time, and to spare the life of some animals, we need to put the brakes on our desires sometimes! I hope that you continue to enjoy reefkeeping, and find greater success.

To do that, please consider some of the advice that has been given, especially from people like David Mohr.


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Brittlestars!! http://home.att.net/~ophiuroid
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[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: ophiuroid ]

 

[jdeets]

I won't offer any help but some advice for Brad. I read the entire thread. You've been doing marine for 4 months. Your responses to those with vast experience and knowledge and who are very well-respected on the board is to attempt to "explain away" the suggestions they make. I'd submit that if you'd consider every response you might find the key to your problem.

Something is obviously very wrong. I haven't been into marine much longer than you, but my tank is a 180 and has only 11 fish. I've lost only four yellow-tailed damsels, all of which died within a day after they were added. With the exception of those, I've lost no fish.

Your tank has a problem and people are trying to help. Your responses to the inquiries suggest that you have all the answers and you don't seem interested in considering the advice of very experienced and thoughtful members of the board.

If I'd lost 18 fish in 4 months, I'd certainly start to think that maybe I DIDN'T have all the answers and at least consider the advice of others. Do it for the fish if nothing else.

 

[BradB]

danmhippo:

Are you using any additives besides Calcium?

Yes, I used Turbo Calcium and Super Buffer before switching to kalkwasser. I also add Strontium/Molybdenum, Magnesium and Iodine.


Do you have test kits telling you if you under dose, or over dose the additives?

Not yet (some tests are hard to find), however I don't go over label direction, and I am heavy on water changes, since this is the only solution I have to unknown problems (why fish die, and also my Calcium). Overdousing of addatives is also unlikely, as this would probably affect my corals first, and would show slowly declining health in all fish, instead of isolated instant disapearances.


You said you added 1 gal of Kalk daily, How do you add them into the tank? Drip, or dump? Have you noticed any sudden PH, Alk, or Temp swings?

An autotopoff drips kalk to replace all evaporation. Even removing water from the tank (which is also replaced - since the water level is lowered) does so slow enough PH isn't affected. I am using a pinpoint PH monitor, which seems well calibrated, and would still show change in PH if it were off. PH swings from 7.8 at night to 8.2 in the day, and temp from 75 at night to 80 at afternoon. Alk tests a little low. Again, none of this could rapidly kill a few healthy fish, without visible deterioration of corals and other fish.


Have your tank actually finished cycling?

Yes, I'd have quite an amonia or nitrite spike after 4 months if it didn't.


What is the current ammonia and nitrite readings?

As I said, ammonia/nitrite and nitrate are about 0. Nitrates were present earlier, and slowly fell - indicating my tank cycled normally. Again, this would hit the corals harder than the fish.

 

[BradB]

Lunchbucket:


so how much LR

150 lbs Fiji


LS

4 inches


filtration

None, other than sand and rock


temp swings

75-80