Ich + something else?

[jhale]

The locally collected spotfins have come down with ich plus possibly a bacterial disease. I've never had to diagnose a fish disease before so I'm hoping some of the fish experts here can help me.

Other than the Ich, they are acting normal and eating well. I suspect a bacterial infection due to a white film covering them when the ich spots are not visible.

take a look and see what you think.

 

[Domboski]

That is certainly bad. I'm interested as well.

 

[Bob 1000]

Jhale pic,,, and you couldn't get the ich parasite smiling for the camera,,lol... What is this world coming to... Have they always had this(since collection)??? Do you have a UV?? How are your parameters???

 

[jhale]

I put a 25 watt UV on the tank last week in response to the ich, nitrates are high.

I'd like to start treating with seachems cupramine but want to make sure there is not a secondary disease i need to treat for as well.

 

[Domboski]

Now that I think about it I think it is possible that the ich infestation itself could cause a bacterial infection. Don't quote me on that though. Just something to throw out there for discussion.

 

[marrone]

It looks like just ich but it could also be marine velvet(Amyloodinium ocellatum) which usually leaves a white film or powder look over the fish. Marine velvet is easier to cure then ich. I would remove the fish and start to treat with copper. You should see result fairly fast.

I wouldn't worry about hooking a UV up to tank as it's not going to have an impact, as it good to use when you don't have anything, as it does keep away some diseases, but it usually doesn't have much impact once your fish have something.

 

[jhale]

Mike will the copper also treat Amyloodinium ocellatum? if it is that?

 

[jhale]

Dom, ich can cause a secondary bacterial infection, the ich 'cuts' can get infected.

 

[marrone]

Mike will the copper also treat Amyloodinium ocellatum? if it is that?

Yes, it will treat both.

 

[marrone]

A fish can get a secondary bacteria infection from a number of things. One from scratching or rubbing against things. Also open wounds, from the ich or rubbing, can lead to a bacteria infection. Bacteria infections are usually very hard to cure and since the fish is already in bad condition from the ich most fish die from it pretty quick.

You need to treat the fish with a [FONT=arial,helvetica]antibiotic like [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]Neomycin and Nitrofurazone and you should do it in a contain and not the main tank.
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[jhale]

Mike would you suggest treating for bacterial infection no matter?

 

[marrone]

I would treat with the copper first and see if they improve. You should see results pretty fast if it's Marine Velvet, most likely the next day.

They're eating so I would wait before you treat them for a bacteria infection.

I would also leave a light on near the tank. That will keep them active and help them fight off the diseases.

 

[Domboski]

I have plenty of furan2 if you want it. I've had mixed results with it though. The fish that can tolerate the treatment recover quickly from infection but some fish do not tolerate the treatment and die. Maybe Mike knows more details about it. Tangs were my biggest problem. Not sure how butterflies would respond. Worked great for my seahorses several years ago.

 

[jhale]

I researched cupramine and as far as I can tell it is the least harmful copper treatment available. People who used it correctly reported good results.

 

[marrone]

It mayn't even be an bacteria infection, just a lot of mucus from the parasites on and in the fish.

These are Butterfly fish and they're pretty delicate so I would go crazy treat them.

 

[KathyC]

The ich actually 'bore' a hole in the fish when they are emerging through the skin, thereby causing wounds. Same circumstance in the gills.

Yes, copper can be used in conjunction with an antibiotic. I would definitely treat both simultaneously.

Mike - are you sure about the Marine Velvet?? That is a parasitic infection rather than bacterial. Not so sure about that. Marine Velvet also makes fish looks at though they have a 'gold' sheen on their bodies. If you aren't seeing that, then I doubt that it is Marine Velvet.

John, as Michael said, the Copper will treat both the Ich and Velevt (if you have Velvet), but you can also use a broad spectrum antibacterial medication with that treatment and I would rather lean in that direction.
Erythromycin would fit the bill.

Just one thing - whatever you treat with , please add EXTRA AIR to the tank, this is critical!

 

[jhale]

i'll add a whole bunch of air to the tank, thanks for the tip.

 

[marrone]

Kathy it's a parasitic infection, it has all the signs of it.

 

[KathyC]

Kathy it's a parasitic infection, it has all the signs of it.

Are you more leaning towards a parasitic disease like chilodinella more than velvet? I don't see velvet on that fish.
If so, then I would agree about it being parasitic rather than bacterial, but either way that is a tough call.

 

[marrone]

It's either be velvet or ich with excess mucus from the fish. Either way you need to treat it with copper.

You also need to be very careful as not only are these fish butterfly fish but unless they've grow a lot, from the ones that were collected, they're very small and probably wouldn't take to good to the copper or other medicine.