Hlle

[Paul B]

HLLE or Head and lateral line erosion or as we often call it "hole in the head disease" is just about the only aquarium malady that we can't yet cure or even know the cause.
I know what is not the cause because I have been experimenting on it for many years and I know all of the things that do not cause it.
Steven Pro hit it on the head when he said that it is caused by captivity
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php

Wild fish supposedly are not prone to HLLE and I must say in 40 years of diving I have never seen it on a fish in the sea.
It is not caused by a lack of vitamin A (which I thought was one cause) it is not a lack of vitamin C (another thing I thought it was) or stray currents (another possability but doubtful), stress (this is blamed for everything)
A bacterial or viral infection has not been determined. But this malady affects a large majority of fish mostly tangs but many fish species can be affected. It is not fatal but sometimes the fish looks so bad you would wish it would die.
Also some tanks seem not to be at risk. I know that if I keep a hippo or yellow tang for a few years it starts to develop HLLE.
It could just be a small spot for years then it slowly spreads.
The hippo I have now is just missing a small patch of skin on his head, a positive precurser to the "disease" (if it is a disease)
I have been experimenting for three months by giving this fish large amounts of calcium, Vitamin A, C, and D.
The spot is still there but the fish is very noticably brighter. His blue is very blue and the black is very black. But the experiment is a failure because I know this fish will still get HLLE.
I have had dozens of Hippo's and they usually live over ten years but if I remember, they all got HLLE eventually.
I am going to keep giving those vitamins just because of the improved color but I still need to know before I croak what in captivity causes this ugly disease.
Paul

 

[Deanos]

If they're going to get HLLE eventually, maybe it's a sign of old age, like humans getting wrinkles or grey hair.

 

[chazertis]

article is a good read. HLLE is not found in the wild.

 

[Dace]

If they're going to get HLLE eventually, maybe it's a sign of old age, like humans getting wrinkles or grey hair.

Don't think so dean, i've seen it develope at a very early stage on hippos, my hippo also has hlle, wish i know what to do,paul, i might come by you this sunday after the swap or anytime next week.
let me know what works for you

 

[Deanos]

:shhh: Young people get grey hair/wrinkles due to stress, genetics and other afflictions as well. I've had grey hair since I was a teenager

 

[Paul B]

If they're going to get HLLE eventually, maybe it's a sign of old age, like humans getting wrinkles or grey hair.

Hippo's live at least 15 years, no reason to call them old after three or four.
And wild ones don't get it.

I've had grey hair since I was a teenager

My hair diden't last long enough to turn gray.

paul, i might come by you this sunday after the swap or anytime next week.
let me know what works for you

Daceman, are you talking to me? You are more than welcome to come by me but I don't think you don't know where I live. I am not going to the swap.

 

[juan319]

Very good article.

 

[Paul B]

Juan, it is a very good article, unfortunately it only describes things that possably do not cause the disease. No disrespect to Steven Pro as this is a disease of ornamental captive aquarium fish and therefore not subject to large grants to fund a cause. We are going to have to do that ourselves. It may not be easy because although it is only a result of captivity, captivity in itself changes everything about the envirnment the animal came from. There is lack of sunlight, lack of plankton, lack of seaweed, lack of schoolmates, lack of NSW (usually), lack of sufficient current, lack of cleaner fish, etc. Also we have additions of unnatural substances. We have carbon, Poly filters, Phos Ban, ground probes or lack of ground probes, induced voltages, artificial lighting, sponge filters, ASW, tap water, RO water, DI water, Selcon, etc. not to mention that we mix animals from every ocean and sea on earth.
Maybe it is all or none of these factors.
Oh yeah, I forgot plastics. Our world is just about made out of the stuff and lately it is believed it causes all sorts of things. Our aquariums are also infused with plastics.

 

[meschaefer]

There is lack of sunlight, lack of plankton, lack of seaweed, lack of schoolmates, lack of NSW (usually), lack of sufficient current, lack of cleaner fish, etc. Also we have additions of unnatural substances. We have carbon, Poly filters, Phos Ban, ground probes or lack of ground probes, induced voltages, artificial lighting, sponge filters, ASW, tap water, RO water, DI water, Selcon, etc. not to mention that we mix animals from every ocean and sea on earth.
Maybe it is all or none of these factors.
Oh yeah, I forgot plastics. Our world is just about made out of the stuff and lately it is believed it causes all sorts of things. Our aquariums are also infused with plastics.

Well at least where starting to narrow it down! :irked:

 

[meschaefer]

with all seriousness though....

In your first post you indicate that you have been supplementing different vitamins over the last three months or so. Has the HLLE spread in that time frame.

You stated "It is not caused by a lack of vitamin A (which I thought was one cause) it is not a lack of vitamin C (another thing I thought it was". Not knowing your reason to believe that this may have been the cause, if we assume for the sake of argument that a lack of an essential vitamin was the cause, with your testing it may be the cause just not the cure.

Does that make sense, I wrote it out twice and am still not happy with it.

 

[Paul B]

Matt, I have been dosing vitamins with this Hippo for three months but I have been experimenting on HLLE for many years. It is hard to tell if the HLLE on my Hippo has stopped spreading. This disease could take years to advance. Three months is not long enough to tell. My last hippo was about ten when he died in an accident and he had a little of it also. I want to keep a hippo or any tang for their entire lifespan which should be about 15 years completely HLLE free. This malady probably affects all fish to some degree, it may only be more noticable on tangs.
Almost all yellow tangs in captivity for a while have it. It is more noticable on a hippo because it is blue. A french Angel really looks awful with it.
As for my reason to believe a vitamin deficiency may cause it, my reasoning is that vitamin A,D and C makes the skin of the fish look so much better but it does not seem to repair the lesions. I will keep up the vitamin therapy (which also may kill the fish) for a few more months to see if the lesion repairs itself. I once brought a french angel back to health with this method but it was over 30 ago and I remember it took months. And of course I diden't write down my results so I am trying to remember as best I can. In those days I was probably feeding mostly flakes.
This is the part of this hobby I enjoy most. Experimenting, going where no man has gone before...OK thats from Star Trek

 

[ming]

I would believe it to be an improper diet. I've seen fresh water oscars get them when they were fed on a goldfish only diet for years. Some holes got to 1/4" big right through the head. The fish was about a foot long. Once switched over to a veggie based diet like frozen formula 2, the holes in the head were noticeably smaller after a year or so.

 

[Paul B]

Ming an improper diet is another thing that has been suggested many times.
Much of the food I feed my fish I collect in the sea. I have dove with just about every fish I have ever kept and closely followed as many as I could just to see if I could tell what it was eating. Last year I went on a dive trip to Tahiti and surrounding Islands to observe moorish Idols. I pretty much know what fish eat in the sea and I try to duplicate it as much as possable. Fish like yellow tangs usually exhibit HLLE in the store a couple of weeks after they were collected.
It may be food related but I don't think that would be the only cause.
Is there anyone here who has a yellow tang or Hippo tang for five or ten years that does not have any HLLE? If there is, I would be interested. I could learn something.

 

[russianmd]

Miracle Mud makes a very strong claim (backed up only anecdotally, of course) about their product's ability to cure HLLE:

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/products/miracle_mud.cfm

 

[Dace]

:shhh: Young people get grey hair/wrinkles due to stress, genetics and other afflictions as well. I've had grey hair since I was a teenager

Thats because you were googling everything since you were young...lol... No bring that old A$$ over here so i can try to spank you in hand ball............Not. At least i tried. sorry Paul, back to topic

 

[Dace]

Daceman, are you talking to me? You are more than welcome to come by me but I don't think you don't know where I live. I am not going to the swap.

Yes paul, PM me your addy and number. i want to go by sometime next week

 

[Sumbub]

I can't exactly claim that I've healed it, but I've had a Scopas tang that was developing HLLE. It was pretty young, I believe about 6 months old. I used selcon on dried nori seaweed. It took about 1-2 months, but most of it disappeared. I wasn't able to keep up the treatment because this fish was at my sister's and I was staying there during a family emergency and when I left, it came back. I'm not totally sure what's in selcon, but it's a vitamin supplement. Have you tried that supplement?

 

[cali_reef]

someone gave me a hippo with HLLE, it stopped getting HLLE and all the old holes closed backed up after feeding a diet of mixed store bought seafood, kelp, and seaweed. I am pretty sure the fish is at least 5 years old, Chris(CB747) should still have that monster in his tank.

 

[Paul B]

I actually think I know why there are so many conflicting reporst of healing times.
It seems that the vitamin therapy will grow healthy skin but it stops at the lesions because of the bacteria inhabiting those places. The bacteria take hold when the skin recedes. Of course this is my theory from looking closely with a jewelers loupe.
I am now continuing the vitamins along with oral antibiotics. I think if I can reduce the bacteria population, the skin will heal. If this works, I will get another tang with HLLE and try it again.
Sumbub, I use Selcon every day
Paul

 

[Awibrandy]

As everyone here knows by now, I am not scientific in the least. My only contribution to this topic is what I believe caused my healthy tangs to come down with it. And of course I could be 200% wrong.
The tangs were fine until 1 fish in the tank came down with ick. I treated the tank for the ick with a copper base medication which was NOT suppose to harm the "good bacteria"(biological). Well it did just the opposite of course. Any way, after that disaster the tank had to cycle all over again (which by the way, for some strange reason it has taken months to do so). A couple of weeks in to the disaster my tangs began to develop HLLE, and continue to get worse until recently. Now that the tank appears to finally reach the end of the cycle they seem to be improving.
I have always fed frozens, flakes, pellets & algea sheets soaked in Selcon, Vita-Chem, & Garlic Extreme so I don't think the vit. have had anything to do with their recovery. I think what caused it was the quality of the water they were in. Or perhaps the stress of what happened to thier enviroment.