Miracle Mud Analysis Complete!

[Minh Nguyen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GLD:
<STRONG>I wonder if the Ecosystem will respond with a post?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't use the Ecosystem but I have no doubt that it works, Just as my DSB refugium. The cost of the thing is another mater. Just some cheap sand for an arm and two legs. I would not pay that price for some thing like that.

 

[bsme]

MattM,

Having the analysis done was a good idea. Calling the manufacturers liars without "incontrovertible fact" is not a good idea. Accusing someone of lying should require "incontrovertible fact". You stated your belief that the mud is non-oceanic in origin. That is where you should stop.

 

[esmithiii]

Matt:

Thank you for the time and effort that went into the research. As I understand it you have nothing to gain from substantiating or discrediting the claims of the manufacturer. I can understand the lack of tolerance for "snake oil salesmen" and I applaud integrity in this industry that has its share of charlatans.

I think the issue is with the word "Lie". Although this seems to be an accurate use of the word, please understand that in this nation it seems we have an issue with the definition of simple words like the word "is". You might want to use words like "untrue", "false" or maybe even "deceptive", "misleading", etc. Surely you don't want to offend anyone who may have spent alot of money on this product, do you?

I think you have stated the results in a matter-of-fact manner, and that the makers have the same opportunity to refute the findings of the analisys and the conclusions. I would love to hear from the manufacturers where the stuff comes from, how it is harvested and why there is no trace of anything that seems to come from the ocean. In my book if I say one thing and the reality is different then either I am misinformed or I am lying.

Gosh, I hope I don't get sued for this OPINION!

E

 

[naesco]

Matt thank you for the information and sharing your opinion with us.
It is nice to know that there are suppliers who are interested enough to add their opinions on new products available to reefers.

 

[bsme]

The semantics involved is not a legal issue. It is an ethical issue. Have the facts in hand before making an accusation such as this. The analysis is a good start, but more would be needed to make the jump to calling someone a liar. You should be able to find that step in your integrity handbook. I neither use the Ecosystem or recommend it.

 

[esmithiii]

BSME:

This is what he said:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> I for one, am now convinced that this stuff has never seen the ocean and at least one claim made by EcoSystems is a lie.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you feel better if he said:

I for one, am now convinced that this stuff has never seen the ocean and at least one claim made by EcoSystems is untrue.

??

He clearly stated this as his opinion, and I for one appreciate someone who is willing to call a spade a spade, and not sugar-coat it.

E

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: esmithiii ]

 

[SPC]

Bsme, yes please tell us the proper way to address this, you have my curiosity up.

Steve

 

[Phishmon]

I was a skeptical as anyone

I've dealt with many snake oils over the years


I set one up (the ecosystem 40)
and have spent almost a year trying to crash the thing
and it won't crash

granted if I screwed up the water quality I could do it

I let the system go no water changes for 9 months
took the light off he refugium and took the bioballs out
the only that has happened in that time is the cyano has built up
but is still not too bad

I did everything your not supposed to do to a new tank
and it handled it
way better than a protein skimmer would

here is what I did

29 gallon tank
ecosystem 40
4 inch sand bed
RAW live fiji rock 25 pounds
175 MH 10K bulb
set the system up
turned the lights on for 14 hours a day

hair algae started in long strands
I harvested it a week later and added the calurpa tot he eco 40
the hair never came back and havent seen any to this day
i added corals a week after that and
the system was doing awesome
after 4 months of it being set up
I took the light off the filter and the bioballs out

the system is still doing fine
and it hasnt had a water change in months

the point of this is not to say hey get this don't do water changes etc

the point was to see if this system could handle extreme conditions from a set up and it did
there is no way a skimmer rated for that size tank could do what this filter did

IMO IME

 

[naesco]

Phishmon
I see that you sell Miracle Mud.
Can you tell us whether Miracle Mud claim that the product comes from the ocean is true or false?

 

[Phishmon]

Beats me


I didn't start carrying them until i was convinced the system works up to thier claims

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Phishmon ]

 

[esmithiii]

Phishmon-

Thanks for the input. The issue is not necessarily whether the product works, but rather A) is the stuff from the ocean as advertised, B) because of the cost, would dirt out of my backyard also work? and C) what exactly is the miracle part?

We all know EXACTLY what is in Kalkwasser and it is used extensively in this hobby.

E

 

[Anonymous]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

We all know EXACTLY what is in Kalkwasser and it is used extensively in this hobby.

Right, and many hobbyists know an inexpensive substitute (pickling lime), an appropriate analogy I think for "digging it up out of your back yard"

 

[naesco]

Phishmon
can you find out from your supplier of Miracle Mud whether the stuff you sell is or is not from the ocean as they have claimed?
Thank you

 

[liquid]

Considering the shear amount of iron in the stuff, I would hesitate to consider that portion of the MM from oceanic origin. That's terrestrial soil from everything I know... I can't say for certain that iron is not found in oceanic sediments, but my guess is, no it isn't. I will defer to the other more knowledgeable persons on sediments. Maybe Ron or Eric have some comments to make on the findings. Also, considering that the acid test turned up negative, there can't be any carbonate present in the sample.

All of the above, of course, is just my opinion.

liquid

 

[Vins Fins]

Hey Phishmon your in the buisness, why not make the stuff your self for .50/lb and sell it to everyone for 2$/lb. You would probly make out well. iron and sand doesn't seam so difficult.

 

[Lknapp]

Certainly appears that the study (if reliable) would be enough of a factual basis to question the credibility of those representing that MM is from the ocean. I applaud matt for calling a spade a spade.

 

[bsme]

Here is the point I want to make. A very thorough lab analysis was done on Miracle Mud. Based on the results, 2 conclusions were made:

1. The mud doesn't conform to oceanic mud.
2. Leng Sy is a liar.

That's a pretty big leap from 1 to 2. Conclusion 1 is based on scientific anyalysis of the mud. There is factual evidence to support this conclusion. Conclusion 2 is an opinion based on intuition/gut feeling/common sense? I don't know if thats good enough to call someone a liar. Questioning a persons integrity does require some burden of proof.

The results of the analysis spoke volumes about the product and possibly the manufacturer. The results are good enough to stand on their own. Having said that here is a blurb about Miracle Mud that I pulled from the Ecosystem website FAQ (http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/FAQ.cfm). I don't have access to the ad on the actual product:

"What is so special about the Miracle Mud???
Miracle Mud is oceanic mud, harvested in a certain region at a certain depth, when processed we blend @!#$% with +)_(&* that is time released into the water column. Therefore it is not nessasary to add any chemicals or additives to balance the water chemistry. See articles by Tom Frakes and Mike Paletta."

It is possible that they are mixing X% of oceanic mud with Y% of terrestial dirt. Based on the lab analysis, you can take a pretty good guess at the actual ratios used. Also, is it possible that the oceanic mud being used (if at all) is silica based? Would the dirt off the CA coast be able to pass the fizz test? Could they be adding just enough "oceanic" mud to satisfy ad regulations? I don't know. Wouldn't make it any more pallatable. $10/lb. for any kind of mud is disturbing to me.

Would like to add that there is a HUGE difference between an untrue statement and a statement that is a lie. The difference is not in semantics and if you can't figure it out I can't help you.

 

[naesco]

Sorry BSME you are wrong.
The burden is NOW on the Miracle Mud people to let us know whether the stuff is or is not from the ocean as they appear to have claimed.
There is no longer any point in them being secretive on the contents of Miracle Mud as we have two independent tests which tell us all what the stuff is made of.
If the tests are wrong they should tell us so.

 

[Anonymous]

If you read the statement on their site it says clearly that it is some part oceanic mud. It also says that they ad in other stuff to make it what it is. It looks like there is a good deal of something similiar to laterite in there. You ever buy laterite? It costs 10-15$ a lb.

The analysis isnt complete until you compare the data with every known substrate or mixtures of substrates that could contain part from the ocean.

The MSRP on the mud is $8/lb and thats with your standard LFS markup of 100% The main money maker of this company is their mud. If you dont want to buy their sumps etc they usually gladly email or fax you sump designs for the sysem. If they told you the exact makeup of their mud you would just go out and buy the components yourself and where would they be?

I am personally running a mud filter on my 60 gallon sps tank and am very happy with the results so far. I could have bought a nice $500 skimmer and done the same but it was cheaper to go with the mud. In much larger tanks the cost effective way would have been to go with the skimmer.


Chris Kohly

 

[bsme]

I'm not wrong here, naesco. There are two issues. The origin of the mud and the intentions of the manufacturer with regard to their advertisements. If you or anyone else can show that they intentionally misrepresented or lied about their product please share that info. Read the product info, compare it to the lab analysis, and draw your own conclusions. It seems that they left themselves a few outs.

My own thoughts are that they did not lie in their claims. They were just very clever about revealing the ingredients. A very small percentage of the mud MAY be oceanic in origin. Everyone assumed it was a calcium based substrate. I don't know that it has to be to come from an ocean. Any ocean. Anywhere. It's analogous to a "mountain spring" bottled water company. They can mix a very small percentage of spring water with purified city tap water and still label it "mountain spring" water. Outside of a court of law, there is no "burden" for the manufacturer to reveal anything. The poster after you stated the reasons why. I would encourage all to read the manufacturers claims and read them carefully. Also for the record, I think MattM did a great job in pursuing this matter.