• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

A

Anonymous

Guest
I'm a little confused, a hermatypic coral is a reef building coral, questions are :

1 - are they only photosynthetic corals ?
2 - if not, then can the same term be applied to other lifeforms that contribute to reef building including fossillisation?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
OK, think I probably answered half of this, a hermatypic coral is ANY coral that excretes a lime stone skeleton that adds to the reef structure, maybe photsynthetic or may not be.

But, can something like a fossilised trilobite or crinoid be classed as hermatypic - I think so, definitely for crinoids neither of which are photosynthetic?

Does it have to be secreted onto the reef structure?



[This message has been edited by chris-s (edited 19 March 2001).]
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I thought hermatypic was photosynthetic and ahermatypic was not photosynthetic.

Dave
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I too thought photosynthesis had something to do with it at first, but I did a bit of searching and...

<snip> . This associaton has long been known to be one of the primary reasons for the success of the hermatypic, or reef-building, corals. Not all symbiotic corals are hermatypic. Most of the soft corals that are kept in aquaria also contain zooxanthellae, but do not contribute to the reef framework because they do not secrete limestone skeletons. </snip> from "http://www.marshreef.org/images/borneman/borneman3.html"

<snip>What are corals? The term coral has several different dictation's, but most commonly it refers to the order scleractinia, all of which have hard limestone skeletons. This order is divided into two main contributors: reef-building and non-reef-building. Most of these two groups are hermatypic and need to aquire sunlight to live. Other organisms do build skeletons similar to those of the same order and these are normally known as non-scleractinian corals. </snip>
from "http://www.athiel.com/lib4/corals7.htm"

I think it's the way the first paragraph in part 3 of the lecture notes is worded which makes it sound like that, but what it is really talking about is the photosynthetic reef building corals that live in the shallow water using light, as opposed to those reef building corals that live in deeper waters and don't get any or as much light, both are excrete a limestone skeleton which builds the reef so both are hermatypic.

Photosynthesis along with zooxlanth. enable higher volumes of calcium to be produced.

Hopefully Eric will clear it up !
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Here is a article:
http://www.athiel.com/lib4/corals7.htm

Actually maybe Hermatypic corals are reef building and ahermatypic are non reef building.

Here is something else I found:

Cut:
The adaptability of scleractinian coral species to environmental conditions, and their life strategies, is a heavily discussed topic in coral literature. It has certainly much to do with the presence or absence of the symbiotic zooxanthellae in the coral polyp tissue. Deep sea corals live in the aphotic zone, so then are azooxanthellate, mostly non-reef builders, so then are also ahermatypic. But some of them can construct reefs, so they are hermatypic (e.g. Lophelia). Reef-building corals from shallow waters are in general hermatypic, so they are mostly zooxanthellate, but there are azooxanthellate reef-building corals (e.g. Dendrophyllia). The cosmopolitan coral genus Madracis belonging to the family Pocilloporidae, has already been recorded from the Mesozoic. The genus contains approximately 15 recent species, with the whole range from being zooxanthellate - hermatypic to azooxanthellate - ahermatypic, with the two forms even found within one species.The genus will be treated in respect to the systematics, geographical distribution and ecological adaptation. The theory is advanced that some shallow water (zooxanthellate) species can adapt to deep water, becoming azooxathellate under certain circumstances - a reversible state presumably, called apozooxanthellate. This has implications for survival possibilities, species variability and distribution patterns.
cut:

Now what is a scleractinian coral? this keeps comming up also.

Dave




[This message has been edited by shred5 (edited 19 March 2001).]
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
From what I understand:

hermatypic = reef-building (whether photosynthetic or non-photosynthetic)

ahermatypic = non-reef-building (whether photosynthetic or non-photosynthetic)

A trilobite would not be classified as a hermatypic organism as it is not a coral, it did not excrete a calcium carbonate skeleton on the reef itself and it was a living, free swimming organism. Fossilization is not a reef-building event.

fwiw

liquid

[This message has been edited by LiquidShaneo (edited 19 March 2001).]
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Yes Shane, I have come to the same conclusion, so this also excludes crinoids which are made of about 80% calcium and are major constituents of many Paleozoic limestones, presumably yes because this is limestone created thru fossilisation not reef creation thru calcium excretions.

Good, understand it now.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I don't believe you're supposed to be discussing quiz questions and answers on the board. I just read thru my quiz and realized this thread (specifically the second post on this thread dealing w/ trilobytes and crinoids) directly deals with one of the questions and the quiz specifically asks about these 2 organisms.

I had no idea that I was discussing quiz questions/answers and I appologize Eric.

Shane



[This message has been edited by LiquidShaneo (edited 19 March 2001).]
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I dont believe there is anything wrong asking for a definition to a word used in a question. How are you supposed to answer a question if you dont know the word used. There are a hell of a lot of words used in the text that I dont understand. I am not a biologist and dont understand all the terms used. Is that not what we are hear to learn. I believe that is what this discussion group is for. A Definition of the words hermatypic ,ahermatypic and scleractinian were asked for. No one is asking for the anwser to the quiz.

Dave

[This message has been edited by shred5 (edited 19 March 2001).]
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Dave,

I don't believe there is anything wrong either with asking for a definition of a word or concept. I was not referring to the original question when I made my statement. I had no problem with that question. However, the follow-up (which was the second post) is what I am referring to:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
But, can something like a fossilised trilobite or crinoid be classed as hermatypic - I think so, definitely for crinoids neither of which are photosynthetic?

The question was asked if both of these were hermatypic (reef-building). Question #4 specifically asks about trilobytes and crinoids being hermatypic which greatly plays into the answer to question #4. See my reasoning?

I'm not flaming anyone so please don't take it as such.
smile.gif
Heck, I'm having trouble remembering half the definitions too! lol Man, I shoulda went for my biology major in addition to my chem major... :P

Shane
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Shane I see your point I did not read that post for some reason. It was not meant as a flame.
Dave
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hey guys,

Sorry if you think my questions appeared a bit loaded, that was not my intention.

I queried this because after doing some seaching I read that huge volumes of ancient limestone are comprised of fossilised crinoids, although this is most likely limestone laid down thru sedimentation. But after a bit more thought, I realised this could only be classed as a reef once it had been colonised by corals otherwise it's just a lump of limestone, in this way they are no more reef builders than a volcano is, spewing out some lava which gets colonised by corals.

I have kind of answered the question myself, just needed to talk it thru, too use to working in a team I guess, I'll just go away and shutup now. Thanks for the input anyhow, next time I'll be more cunning
wink.gif


Chris.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Chris-s
I would not wory about it. Unless we say something like the answer to question 1 is a,&b I doubt there would be a problem. I dont see a problem with discussing a question. But we probably should wait to see what they say about it first tho. I think that is what this forum is for to discuss topics in the text.

Dave
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Thanks Dave, thats what I thought.

Any idea who we send the quiz answers too and by when?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Great thread - sorry I was away for the weekend and just got back late last night .

OK, let'd do this one - And although it sure would be fun to do as a discussion in person, the fact is that we type..so

The word hermatypic and ahermatypic have long been misused, even in the scientific literature. The answer is in:

Schumacher, Helmut, and Helmut Zibrowius. 1985. What is hermatypic?: a redefinition of ecological groups in corals and other organisms. Coral Reefs 4: 1-9.

Helmut also wrote and article about hermatypic soft corals. Some Sinularia produce suh dense and numerous sclerites in their base that they are larger and more enduring and dense than the skeletons of most stony corals...therefore, even soft corals can be hermatypic. OTOH, many do not recogize Galaxea or Blastomussa as hermatypic because the skeleton is so fragile it just falls apart on the reef over time. A motile gastropod, for example, is not hermatypic because it down not build reef structure. It is calcareous, and *secretes* or *accretes* (not excretes) a skeleton, but is not hermatypic.

hermatypic means reef -building, more or less. Actually means cointributing "significantly" to the structure of a reef

ahermatypic means "not reef -building" more or less

The ability of some reef organisms to photosynthesize greatly enhances their ability in number and amount to calcify, and therefore be hermatypic. Photosynthesis does not, however, equate at all to hermatypic.

Tubastraea micrantha, and in some areas other tubastraea spp., are hermatypic. With the exception of T. micrantha, other Tubastraea spp. are usually not considered herematypic)

So, a photosynthetic organism can be a plant, a microbe, or an animal harboring symbionts.

Symbionts in corals are various zooxanthellae. Thus, the proper term of corals having photosynthetic symbionts is zoxanthellate. Photosynthetic corals are symbiotic corals are zooxanthellate corals, although the latter term is the most correct.

Symbionts in other animals may be things other than zooxanthellae.

So, the great debate rages thus:

If Lophelia, being azooxanthellate, vreates the large caclium structures, are they hermatypes? The technical answer is no, because hermatypic means contributing to reef structure. Let me go further here:

The definition of a coral reef is "massive, wave-resistant, biogenic (has its origins in biologic life) carbonate structures with positive topographic features that are built over millennia, mainly through the actions of hermatypic corals and crustose coralline algae"

The following came as part of one of several recent debates on NOAA's Coral-list:

<<'The term "coral reef" commonly refers to a marine ecosystem in which a

prominent ecological functional role is played by scleractinian corals. A

"structural coral reef" differs from a "non-structural coral community" in

being associated with a geomorphologically significant calcium carbonate

(limestone) structure of meters to hundreds of meters height above

surrounding substrate, deposited by components of a coral reef ecosystem.

The term "coral reef" is often applied to both types of ecosystem or their

fossil remains, although many scientists, especially geomorphologists,

reserve the term for structural coral reefs and their underlying limestone.'>>

It is agreed upon that the term "wave resistant is probably only a hangover from the nautical usage of the word "reef". It is also agreed that Lophelia creates bioherms - not coral reefs, as coral reef has too many other atttributes other than solely the calcium deposits of corals. However, these bioherms also have signficant biodiversity similar to coral reefs, proper.

So, the debate rages on...and why this thread is such a good one.

Let's continue....

Is everyone clear, at least, on hermatypic v. photsynthetic (zooxanthellate)?

Eric
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
So it wasn't such a stupid question after all! This is great stuff, if you've got anymore to add Eric, please do!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Just wondering Eric, how much the debate has heated up over a specific coral reef definition with the global preservation of reef "areas" coming to the forefront so much of late?

It was pretty clear from the reading that the lack of a definiton has proven to be a stumbling block to official management of reefal areas. How much time, if any, has been spent on the issue in the conferences, seminars, etc. you've attended recently?

~Alice
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Alice:

Great question!! I'm stunned by you guys! The acuity, the acuity.....

It is a huge issue right now, and also unfortunate that such stumbling blocks, while seemingly trivial, do very much confound efforts at conservation. Not only is it regularly discussed on the CHAMP mailing list, but is a focus of workshops and sections of conferences of all sorts.

The presentations and articles devoted to this issue are immense, and really beyond the scope of listing them all. If you are really interested in reading more, I can list some...but, be gracious if you are not really going to, because it takes me quite a bit of time and effort to compile listings like that.

If you have specific questions, maybe we can discuss them more here.

Eric
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Almost forgot - some examples

Zooxanthellate and hermatypic - Acropora, Favia, some Sinularia
Zooaxanthellate and ahermatypic - Blastomussa, Discosoma, Xenia
Azooxanthellate and hermatypic - Tubastraea micrantha, Lophelia?, Oculina (sometimes)
Azooxanthellate and ahermatypic - Dendronephthya, Tubastraea aurea, Subergorgia

Photosynthetic and hermatypic - some sponges, coralline algae
Non-photosynthetic and hermatypic - some foraminiferans
Photosythetic and ahermatypic - macroalgae, some sponges
Non-photosynthic and ahermatypic - hydroids, sponges, bryozoans, etc etc etc.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Now Eric, whatever makes you think I would ask you for a bunch of references?? (Alice whistling
wink.gif
)

I would like to learn more about the subject, it's why I'm here! but let's see how the class progresses and what I can glean from it regarding reef definitions. I have my hands pretty full right now just with the course and I can do some extra research after the course is through.

Thank you, as always, for being so helpful.

~Alice

------------------
Reefkeeping is my life; I can't afford a hobby too! www.thereeftank.com a friendly place to learn!
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top