Sad day in the nanny state

[beerfish]

This is why I fear government bans...

This could put an end to coffee and chocolate beers in NJ, since the writing doesn't specify incidental caffeine as an exception.

NJ Bill A3437

This bill would prohibit the sale, delivery, receiving, and purchasing for resale of caffeinated alcoholic beverages. A caffeinated alcoholic beverage is defined in the bill as any prepackaged alcoholic beverage that has been supplemented by the manufacturer with added caffeine or other stimulant that is metabolized by the body as caffeine.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

it's like most legislation, it's written by people with no knowledge of the subject and left vague so it can be forced to fit whatever needs may arise down the line. Take a look at the past few cases with proposed bans in our hobby, the wording can be so vague that the scope becomes larger than what was intended in the first place, negatively effecting portions of an industry that were doing nothing wrong.

 

[jejton]

Man tough crowd with some- actually no you said they got into hot water because they marketed it to more responsible crowd- high schoolers and college kids- we all know theyre the most irresponsible crowd- im quite sure you meant to say they marketed it to a more irresponsible crowd but had a typo, read your post, so I was agreeing with you and joking with you at the same time.

Point taken:

Note to self--- no joking with jejton. Good day sir.

um again....no. My original comment about teenagers being responsible was sarcasm. not sure what the confusion is about.:scratchch:backtotop

 

[Imbarrie]

Im glad it is getting banned for one reason.

It makes it easier to get behind the wheel of a car in a more inebriated state.
Putting a stimulant with an intoxicant is a really bad mix that leaves the drinker thinking they are more sober than they really are.

I have mixed many stimulants with other things, one of the tame ones was red bull and vodka. But after a night of partying I had sense enough to not drive. But, I feel, the people who these drinks are marketed to do not always have the best judgement. And some would end up killing other people on the road.
So yes, the government has a responsibility to everyone else to protect me and my family from the effects of this.
And I have heard it tastes like shite.

 

[beerfish]

But after a night of partying I had sense enough to not drive.

Personal responsibility goes a long way...

But, I feel, the people who these drinks are marketed to do not always have the best judgement.

How exactly did they market to kids? This is a quote from an article I was reading about the ban:

"They're doing it with high sugar content. They're doing it with flavors that appeal to young drinkers?fruit punch, raspberry, peach?and they're doing it by making [the drinks] inexpensive."

No cartoon characters, no on campus promotions, no school credit with each can... so selling a sweet drink that's inexpensive is marketing to kids? Are you kidding me?

So yes, the government has a responsibility to everyone else to protect me and my family from the effects of this.

Yep, you're right, but since you're worried about drunk driving, we should ban cars too. Right? I mean, by your logic, the government has a responsibility to protect you. Now don't forget your helmet when you go outside... wouldn't want to trip on the sidewalk and get a boo boo.

This is exactly the overreaction I'm talking about... Ban it all, why bother taking responsibility for our actions.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

The real problem with legislation like this is it opens the door enough for the government to get it's foot in and set a precedent. You give them an inch and they agree to it because they know they can take the whole foot later on. Next they will try to control what sodas we can buy at the supermarket and tell us what insurance company we have to use, that would just be absurd. Relinquish small civil liberties and you open the floodgates. I mean if we follow this line of reasoning than there is really no reason for motorcycles to even exist legally. They serve no purpose and the mortality rate of accidents is high so maybe Washington should just step in and ban them completely. I mean, I am often compelled to go buy a bike but I might need someone else to tell me it's dangerous and I shouldn't do it by taking the option away completely. I wish someone would just take all my dangerous decisions away from me and free me of any responsibility for my actions, because that's real freedom. If we're lucky they might also ban sharp edges or things that taste "yucky".

 

[beerfish]

The real problem with legislation like this is it opens the door enough for the government to get it's foot in and set a precedent. You give them an inch and they agree to it because they know they can take the whole foot later on. Next they will try to control what sodas we can buy at the supermarket and what insurance company we have to use...

This is already happening. Soda is being banned in schools, and NY has proposed that it be banned from purchase with food stamps. There's a bill proposed in NY to ban the use of salt in restaurants as well.

Other countries don't have these issues. They are able to moderate themselves. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to here.

 

[beerfish]

Oh, and FYI...

Anheuser Busch InBev and SABMillier were the fifth and sixth top advertisers during the 2009 Division 1 basketball tournament telecasts.

Since most of these basketball players are underage, should Bud and Miller be banned?

 

[Imbarrie]

Banning soda in schools is a great idea for kids. My high school didnt have soda and if kids want it they can bring it from home. I was actually surprised when schools started selling it.
Im not sure if you know what you are drinking when you open a can of soda. It is crap.

This country as a whole is completely out of shape. We are ranked just above the gluttonous pacific island nations on the global obesity scale. That is pathetic.
That is also the result of a lack of government involvement and letting companies sell whatever they want to a consumer who will buy it without thinking about the consequences. The government actually has more social responsibility to you than a company. That is something a lot of people dont get.

Speaking as a former bartender any sugary drink is completely packaged to a young market. Most of the sweet tasty drinks are consumed by younger people. You mask the taste and they drink more because they dont taste the alcohol. I dont see many seniors sitting in Fat Tuesdays drinking rum slushies.

Why do you think the government wants to take all your civil liberties away? You are making no sense and you sound paranoid.
What civil liberty are you not enjoying right now because of the oppressive regime of democracy?

 

[beerfish]

Banning soda in schools is a great idea for kids. My high school didnt have soda and if kids want it they can bring it from home.

No... They can't. It's been banned from school grounds in some places. A kid in Texas got a week's worth of detention for having a Jolly Rancher in his pocket.

Im not sure if you know what you are drinking when you open a can of soda. It is crap.

I know exactly what's in it, and occasionally I enjoy a soda.

This country as a whole is completely out of shape. We are ranked just above the gluttonous pacific island nations on the global obesity scale. That is pathetic.

I agree... people need to be educated on how to eat. Things don't need to be banned for them to realize this. In France, soda is available, but somehow people enjoy it responsibly and don't blame the government if they're overeating.

That is also the result of a lack of government involvement and letting companies sell whatever they want to a consumer who will buy it without thinking about the consequences.

So maybe people should start thinking, instead of blaming everyone else. Just because people are morons, doesn't mean that things can't be enjoyed responsibly.

The government actually has more social responsibility to you than a company. That is something a lot of people dont get.

The government has a responsibility to both actually. Without companies to produce jobs and exports, we wouldn't have much of a country.

Speaking as a former bartender any sugary drink is completely packaged to a young market. Most of the sweet tasty drinks are consumed by younger people.

Amaretto? Pina Coladas? Mimosas? Maybe the younger people should learn to grow up and be more responsible. Sure I did stupid things when I was younger, but I took responsibility for them.

Why do you think the government wants to take all your civil liberties away? You are making no sense and you sound paranoid.
What civil liberty are you not enjoying right now because of the oppressive regime of democracy?

I never mentioned civil liberties, and don't think that the Four Loko ban violates them, but I do think it's opening the floodgates for a lot of terrible blanket legislation.

I'll leave the civil liberties fight to another thread about the TSA groping people.

 

[Imbarrie]

Terrible blanket regulation like what?
What do you fear the government will take away next? Jolly Ranchers?

I have no doubt that you feel let down by the irresponsible actions of other people. It this regulation is in the interests of protecting the responsible people from the actions of the irresponsible.
If everyone was acting responsible there are a lot more things we could enjoy. There are a whole lot of illegal things I would like to enjoy and cant. But I understand why.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

+1 Beerfish

I mentioned civil liberties, because that's basically the water we're treading in.

 

[lfsmarineguy]

Imbarrie, if we follow your line of thought than you agree that all alcohol should be banned because it poses a threat to the public well being correct? That you wouldn't mind if soda was banned all together?

 

[beerfish]

Terrible blanket regulation like what?

Like the one I posted earlier:

Proposed NJ Bill A3437

This bill would prohibit the sale, delivery, receiving, and purchasing for resale of caffeinated alcoholic beverages. A caffeinated alcoholic beverage is defined in the bill as any prepackaged alcoholic beverage that has been supplemented by the manufacturer with added caffeine or other stimulant that is metabolized by the body as caffeine.

Heres a few drinks that this would ban in NJ:

Kahlua
Chocolate Stout
Coffee Stout
Godiva Liquor

I know of a few breweries that brew using chocolate and coffee that would have their production cut back considerably because of this. The line: or other stimulant that is metabolized by the body as caffeine means any chocolate, tea, or coffee added to a beverage becomes illegal.

 

[Imbarrie]

There's a particular interaction that goes on in the brain when they are consumed simultaneously. The addition of the caffeine impairs the ability of the drinker to tell when they're drunk. What is the level at which it becomes dangerous? We don't know that, and until we can figure it out, the answer is that no level is safe.​

The FDA's urgency may be attributed to the rising number of states that have decided to ban the drink and the recent crop of Four Loko-related hospitalizations. Such cases prompted the Oregon Alcohol and Drug Policy Commission to urge the FDA to come to a conclusion - and fast.





Sounds like a great reason to me.

 

[beerfish]

There's a particular interaction that goes on in the brain when they are consumed simultaneously. The addition of the caffeine impairs the ability of the drinker to tell when they're drunk. What is the level at which it becomes dangerous? We don't know that, and until we can figure it out, the answer is that no level is safe.​

The FDA's urgency may be attributed to the rising number of states that have decided to ban the drink and the recent crop of Four Loko-related hospitalizations. Such cases prompted the Oregon Alcohol and Drug Policy Commission to urge the FDA to come to a conclusion - and fast.





Sounds like a great reason to me.

So we should then ban Irish Coffee, Rum and Coke, Red Bull and Vodka, anything made with coffee and chocolate...

I guess I've escaped the clutches of death by drinking all of these...

Let's ban booze again... It's dangerous and went over so well last time we tried.

You're a diver right? If I jumped in the water with gear and no training, it would be dangerous. Would that mean diving should be banned? Or is it safer with the proper education? If I consume a reasonable amount of an alcoholic beverage, because I've been educated on its effects, it's no more dangerous than diving with the proper education.

 

[Imbarrie]

No. I never said that. You are not following my line of thought.

Alcohol by itself is not the culprit here. It is when it is combined with another drug, caffeine. When taken together they both serve to incapacitate the drinker to a greater degree. They also severely limit judgement.

The person drinking this drinks more and more and does not feel drunk or tired so they drink more and more. There is little room manage ones actions in this situation. This drink has not been on the market that long and yet has been abused to the point where people have died. Already.
In light of that, I am grateful that mature minds are considering legislation to keep this out of the hands of people that cannot handle it. Myself and a large percentage of others will feel much safer when driving themselves and their families at night.

But you dont seem to think that is important. You seem to just want to drink something that is recently brought on the market because you catch a sweet buzz. If Im following your line of thought.

 

[beerfish]

You seem to just want to drink something that is recently brought on the market because you catch a sweet buzz. If Im following your line of thought.

Actually, I wouldn't touch the stuff. What I do drink, is coffee stouts, chocolate stouts, and other drinks with incidental amounts of caffeine in them. The problem with banning things is that the government doesn't look at the collateral damage caused by a ban.

I would have much less of an issue with them saying "Intentional direct addition of caffeine", but that's not how they're writing these laws.

Incidental addition of caffeine through substances such as chocolate are being caught in the net, when in fact they were never an issue to begin with. Some stupid 20 year old drinking themselves to death with Four Loko shouldn't affect my ability to responsibly enjoy an Imperial Stout that was made with a bit of coffee.

 

[beerfish]

No. I never said that. You are not following my line of thought.

Ok... let me re-phrase my earlier example.

If it was decided that diving on Trimix were much more dangerous than diving on air, should all non-air diving be banned? (Including Nitrox)

This is an over-reaction very similar to Four Loko being bad, so we'll ban anything with caffeine and alcohol.

 

[beerfish]

For instance, a Dogfish Head Imperial Stout is 18% ABV, and likely has an incidental amount of caffeine in it (I'm not 100% sure it does, but it's likely).

I've yet to hear about how some college moron killed himself by binge drinking these, and yet they're potentially going to be banned along with a totally different type of beverage.