sealed tank Qs

[picotanker]

hi there reefers iam new

i was reading threw the nano forums and saw those sealed reefs and iam thinking of setting one up in an old betta hex i have, but iam just eondering if whoe made them(brandon?)could tell me how if the tank is sealed that you would add new frags ect and if the betta hex one could suport a shrimp or two? iam worried that the feeding of the shrimp would raise the nitrates ect and would throw it off?

those tanks are realy cool!!

right now i have one 10g(nothing in it but some hermits and a duster) and iam setting up a 2.5 i also have an azoo that has a sexy shrimp in it(iam taking it down because the plastic got all scratched up)

and iam happy to be hear! 8)

thanks

 

[brandon4291]

Thanks picotanker for taking a notice and posting onto our forum! Glad to have you for sure. The single hardest part of sealing a tank is getting a true seal, so you don't have saltcreep. Even if you start out with a good one, in time most of them likely fail due to repeated opening-closing stress and the point becomes moot...but these leaky sealed attempts may at least stave off a little evaporation, and for pico reefers even a 24 hr delay is helpful. Most watch out for common happenings with sealed reef attempts, such as: saltcreep finds an escape route (a function of too high a water line and incomplete sealing) and as it wicks out of the system along the sides and back of the walls the specific gravity actually lowers with the drop in water level (due to salt being removed faster than FW evaporation). This doesn't always occur, but I've had it happen a few times based on the specifics of the saltcreep situation. When I came in and noticed the water line low, I topped off what I thought was a failing seal and evaporation, driving the S.G down to .020 and nearly killing everything in the tank. The best thing I ever did was retrofit a swingarm SG meter into the tank along the back wall, now I have live-time SG readings at a glance. I drilled extra holes into the back and sides of the SG meter to allow for quicker water refreshement...a top open-only meter may register slow readings in the pico reef based on your topoffs.

I'm at work so I'll have to chop down a little, but consider ways to avoid unsealing your system after it's done. Sure, everyonce in a while you'll have to remove the top to do a major re-aquascape or remove/blow out detritus, but your daily tasks such as calcium/carbonate dosing and feedings can be done many times with a diabetic injection syringe and needle, just mix up and inject your liquids through the seal and into the tank. The needle-hole closes up as the silicone or sealing material springs back into place after every injection. Consider drilling a 1/2" hole in the top of your lid, away from the sealing characters, and keeping it corked. From this larger access hole you can either dose or do full water changes, simply insert a like-sized tube and get the siphon going, refill through the same hole!

Brainstorm ways to seal:

Any small tank can be sealed through one or more means, but as you start using larger tanks (and larger lights) the heat becomes the #1 factor of stress, so I think sealing is better suited to Picos under the 7-26 watt lighting range. Also consider oxygen shortages...compensated by two current methods in the sealed nano reef: 1. internal refugium per my design or similar design. Counterlit or constant-lit to provide an oxygen pump. #2. Low water line allows for a marked airspace above the water column, captures O2 made during the day and holds it overnight. Less effective, but can work if a baffle or internal refugium isn't practical. Most sealed picos have to be fanned externally over the small system to keep cool, all mine do. But not in winter time!

-actually silicone a small bead around the tank and glue the lid into place. Fumes from a tiny bead or smear around the tank haven't killed my animals yet, but I try to support venting by leaving the access hole(s) opened and fanning atop the system. (Watch salinity during this time). Use a razor blade to cut around the circumference of the tank when you have to remove it. Reglue and move on to the next round. (least likelihood of saltcreep sealing)

-it's possible to glue a very thick bead of silicone (1/2" high) around the tank lid before stocking and setting the lid in place. Let dry. Cut with a razor in the middle of the dried bead around the tank to remove the lid, with the lid and the tank having half of this bead still in place. The cut line makes a smooth meet for them each time the lid is put back into place. They can then be reset each service interval by placing a weighted item ontop of the lid (I use the weight of a canopy) which presses the cut seal back into place. You can also fabricate a clip out of steel or whatnot to holdfast the lid when in place. I use both at once to ensure a good seal on the reef thread you see in this forum (this is the second place method for sealing, can allow some saltcreep in time as the seals wear)

-using weatherstripping or something totally attached to the lid for sealing. This works very well on 2.5's with that even inner lip...less well on the Azoo tanks with no-lip on the mating between the lid and the tank. This is tricky and leaves the greatest likelihood for saltcreeping of the three if one tries the sealed-tank approach. Mating the two surfaces firmly with no micro-gaps is the key, and I recon there are other unattempted ways to solve the same issue it just takes a few beers and some free time.

So, brainstorm over this and let me know what you think

Happy to have you onboard

B429

 

[picotanker]

thanks brandon

i looked around and i was thinking of making one out of 2 cases(4"w,4"L,7"H)so i could stack rock, have a deeper sand bed and then the pump from the fuge could be higher up witch would give more room for rock/sand/chatoe ect but would it matter that there is less surface area?

sence i cant seem to find a small pump iam using an elite mini internal (about 1.5"W,2"L,1.7"H)filter with the bottom removed(i cant remember how much it pumps)

for heat(if i need it with the light/pump running)iam using a heat pad with a dial for temp controle,

brandon how did you cut/drill/melt your tanks to attach the tubes from one to the other/to fitt the cord for the pump through?

sence the plastic cases seem to have strong lids on them do i need to seal them further?

what is the best algea ect to absorbe nutrieants ect in the fuge part, and lighting for it to grow?

iam thinking of putting black paper around the fuge area so it can be lit 24/7 and so there isent light spilage from it to the other box ware the coral is,

for stocking iam going mostly with some zoos, shrooms ect(low light stuff) a shrimp of some kind and a snail/cowerie/hermit to eat algea ect

and what kind of silicone did you use for attaching the tubes/sealing would the normal stuff you get at like a home depo work?

thanks alot! and sorry i ask so many questions (and my spelling sucks :roll: )

 

[brandon4291]

Good morning pico!

I'd use silicone from an aquarium store, I've seen stuff in home depot that says not safe for food contact surfaces, so I wouldn't use it in an aquarium. I cut the lines to the pwerhead and heater, ran them through the lid, the reattached them and taped up the splices outside the tank (so the splices won't be near water) so the lines ran through the lid. I used little rubber grommets from radioshack to run the powerlines through, so there would be a good seal as they run through the plastic lid. The heating pad is o.k. if you are willing to monitor temp every day with the changing seasons. You'd be much better off doing this with a standard 2.5 gallon tank with the plastic lip around the edges...easier to seal and will house a standard heater which will be much less work than the pad heater that needs constant adjustment relative to ambient room temperatures.

The macro algae isn't important, I use it more for oxygen production than I do nutrient uptake, but I suspect it's serving both functions because I have to prune so much of it (the biomass has to come from somewhere!)

If you are using an external filter it will be hard to seal right? I'd go with a minijet 14 from one of these websites or your local petco or petsmart. Whatever moves the water a little will be fine for what you are stocking. Just make sure there are no calm spots in the tank among the rockwork. I know some of those little plastic boxes have tight-fitting lids, so that should work for sealing. Try them out...fill it up with SW and leave it there for 3 days, check for saltcreep. Post pics when you can,

B

 

[tinyreef]

hmm, i didn't realize you actually sealed up some of your systems brandon.

i thought you employed the half-bead method (mentioned above) as a form of gasket and then applied some weight or clamp device to seal the system (with the silicone strip/bead acting like an o-ring).

regarding your internal swing-arm hydrometer, doesn't it get fouled or overgrown? do you clean it periodically? maybe you can make a little porthole to pipet out some tank water occasionally for refractometering.

 

[brandon4291]

hey rc nice to see ya Sir. I've only had the swingarm in situ for about two weeks, if it grows over with coralline or gunk I'll either clean it or replace it. You know I keep my systems rather clean of detritus, so I don't expect any accumulations other than coralline. And, due to depth issues in my pico, the swingarm isn't exactly right...1.022 on it is actually 1.024 on an above-water measurement. I simply watch it for an increase, which it currently doesn't make since the seals are holding! I just did it for peace of mind.
I wrote present-tense on the complete sealing attempt meaning up-to-date no ill effects... I'm only using the press-and-seal method currently that's right. I tried this last year in a small azoo tank with some LR and zo's/juvenile coral banded to see if the fumes would stress anyone, after I brainstormed the idea with LordNikon I think in an older thread. Held the seal and didn't kill anything for the time period of the test. I didn't photograph that tank or write it up because it was so basic looking, took it down after about a month due to heating hassles (before I'd seen the hydor external thermo). This fully-sealed approach is what's coming next for me very soon at the end of the month for tax returns. I'm doing the scientific-stirring bar approach rc where I build a false bottom and let the ceramic stirrer blizzard around under things to provide current. External heating pad (stuck to the back of the tank, I don't know if the heater would interfere or be unsafe with the magnetic penetration from the stirring plate to the ceramic mixing bar, probably not tho?) with the hydor this time...it will be the atto-reef bomb I assure ya! Refugium will be baffled and on the side rather than the rear, just a little tweak of the current setup. And, if I decide to go with the tight-fitting acrylic boxes like he mentioned I won't have to penetrate wiring through the lid, it seals tight enough without the silicone. Thanks for keeping up with the threads Team, I'll check back in later after work.
B

 

[tinyreef]

hey rc nice to see ya Sir.

i'm always beagle-dancing around. :wink:

And, due to depth issues in my pico, the swingarm isn't exactly right...1.022 on it is actually 1.024 on an above-water measurement. I simply watch it for an increase, which it currently doesn't make since the seals are holding!

well, at least you can compensate for the false reading. stability is the issue, no matter how you get there.

I'm doing the scientific-stirring bar approach rc where I build a false bottom and let the ceramic stirrer blizzard around under things to provide current.

hmm, what about eventual wear? how's the tank glass hold up versus pyrex and such? if not very well, maybe you can cover the ceramic bar with silicone. when you hear it replace worn-out silicone.

 

[brandon4291]

hey that is a good call! Taken too far the wear would serve as a midnite drill for the pico and drain it all over the counter

Hopefully there is a small pivot edge on the stirrer bard that is at least flat, then small adjustments to the tank over the central magnetic point periodically can even out the wear.

Picot. it might be neater to just convert your 2.5 over to a sealed system. I don't know if you'd ever go through the hassle to remove and replace your livestock (and install the baffle refugium), but as long as you aren't running much more than 13-20 or so watts of light for ex. (causing heat) adding the seal won't change anything, it will make things more stable. A deskfan would be likely depending on your seasonal temps

 

[picotanker]

i never thought about sealing the 2.5? on one hand it would save me having to top off all the time, but it would limit live stock and putting in new live stock if the top is sealed, Hhhmm......i will have think about that :wink:

iam still making the smaller one, so far iam going with some of 7"H 4"W4"L and seeing if i can drill them(my grampa has lots of tools for that )but i might see if i can find some bigger ones with the same tops, if i do go with thses iam thinking of a doing a 2-3" sand bead(and mabie it will help with filteration?)so the coral will be closer to the top(for moveing/fraging and closer to the light)

if i can drill them i will try and get some pics up(just gota see how to use my scanner :roll: )

 

[brandon4291]

Just one thing to consider, for your current 2.5 you wouldn't have to actually seal the lid to the tank, the black lip around your 2.5 makes a perfect candidate for a lid-only seal because they mate so accurately, so it's easy to remove and adjust your livestock whenever. I recommend installling the baffle refugium like the one I use so there will be steady 02 production, lighting it from the rear, and that will entail removing your current items just once so you'll have a dry tank to work with. Shouldn't be any harder than moving them to a bucket temporarily with a heater/powerhead for the 10-12 hours it'll take for the silicone to dry...

Also, I'm brainstorming over what I'd use for the seal. See, if you try to finger-run a bead of silicone around the lid where it will contact the lipping, you won't get it exactly flat and it'll leak a little. If you press-fit it on, to ensure a flat seal, then it'll glue it directly to the tank and you'll have quite a time fitting a razor around that seal/lip to cut it loose. I'd go tour a home-depot and look at the window weatherstripping aisle. Find something flat with adhesive on the back, and run this around the lip or the lid so you can opt for the 'press-fit' type of seal mentioned above. Rcsheng, what can you think of to help us out>

 

[tinyreef]

See, if you try to finger-run a bead of silicone around the lid where it will contact the lipping, you won't get it exactly flat and it'll leak a little. If you press-fit it on, to ensure a flat seal, then it'll glue it directly to the tank and you'll have quite a time fitting a razor around that seal/lip to cut it loose.

I'd go tour a home-depot and look at the window weatherstripping aisle. Find something flat with adhesive on the back, and run this around the lip or the lid so you can opt for the 'press-fit' type of seal mentioned above. Rcsheng, what can you think of to help us out>

imo i think the press-fit will still be your best bet. it's basically a gasket.

apply the finger-run/bead of silicone to either the glass or plastic rim/ledge (i'd suggest the glass for easier maintenance though). let it dry separately, then it's basically a compresseable gasket.

this will allow much easier maintenance but still give you the seal you're looking for. note: there is a gap in the plastic rim (AGA tanks) on one of the corners for hoses and wiring.

the only issue left would be applying sufficient pressure on the lid to compress the "gasket" to form a seal (like an O-ring) without breaking the glass or how-to effectively apply that pressure downward. some kind of locking clamp over the plastic rim (e.g. preserves/jelly jar lid).

you can custom fab something in acrylic (like i did on my pico) but even a small imperfection (and i got 'em!) still allows loads (relatively speaking, of course) of evaporation, 2~4 oz./daily. but a custom fab may allow more options for sealing the system.

there's always ghetto ways too. plastic/saran wrap in sheets. weather-stripping/clear tape.

 

[picotanker]

for now i dont think iam going to seal the 2.5(see how it gos open first) and nay make an ATO if i can(not that great a DIYer)

iam using the 7"H 4"L4"W for the sealed pico, my grampa drilled two holes for the tubes(about 4" up from the bottom) in one and we will drill the other one tommorow, i also got some "perfecto" silicone today from petsmart for the tubes and the lids, we are also making a base for them to sit in so they dont get moved around and the tubes come out,iam going to do as you suggested and drill a 1/2" hole through the top for water changes/feeding so i dont need to remove the seel as often(if ever)also what could i use to put over the 3/4" tubes to stop the inverts from going from one cube to the next?

thanks!

 

[tinyreef]

brandon,
that sounds a little like your old femto-reef. wasn't it two custom cubes connected with a tube? i don't remember though, did you grate/grille the tube? or even need to?

pico,
you could try eggcrate (pricey since you only need a little though), and cut it into shape and glue or wedge into place. if you're bulkheading, then you could also just use the grille that comes with the bulkhead set (although you may want to add holes as they clog quickly).

 

[picotanker]

RC i did copy brandons femto-reef i realy like the way it looks

today we put the two cubes together but the silicone takes at least 48hrs to cure but it might take a week, it looks ok for now but i will have to have a DSB witch i think will look nice, i think the pump i have is about 48-56gph is this ok for flow? iam wondering what light would be good?

 

[picotanker]

well ive leek tested the cubes so iam going to try and get the pump in there soon and get some water in it, iam also looking at lighting optian, i was thinking of just using a 10w screw in light in a desk lamp above it for the corals and some other light for the algea in the fuge if i need it.

 

[picotanker]

well i seem to be having some problems with this tank now, for one the pump isent strong enuf and sence both the tubes are the same size when the pump is on it makes the water in the one cube go up and the other go down, also the water has gotten cloudy for some reason

so iam going to have to take it apart sence i have to change the tubes and replace the pump.

 

[picotanker]

i havent updated this in a wile it seems, unfortunatly this pico dident work , i coudent get the toobs right and the silicone kept makeing the water cloudy so i took it down , but iam going to give up on a sealed reef yet i did find a vase just like the one brandon has so iam going to try and make one like that, so far i just have water, LS in it and a power head.( i will start a new thread for it soon)

my 2.5 is going ok but i dont realy have any coral in it but iam going to get some tomorrow for it , i had a clown goby in it but he was eaten my a mantis shrimp

 

[brandon4291]

I'm glad to hear you are using that approach, I'd like to point out the inverted-lid option as well to restrict topoffs (fitted well it will buy you two/ three days in between topoffs ranging 1.024-1.026)

I bought my lids, 8'' plastic Ivy/water planter inserts, from Alberton's grocery store (floral dept) and Walmart, they happen to sit on the inner diameter of the neck of the vase, therefore directing all condensate from evaporation (the freshwater we want to retain) back into the system and not over the lip of the vase onto the table...

The only other brainstorm I can think of was the airstone approach. I never used just a powerhead, my test vase ran for two years on an airstone so I don't know if that played an unintended role as an oxygenator. It's quite possible strong water circulation alone might provide the same oxygen consistency, I never had any issues with low oxygen levels in the reefbowl even though there was no photosynthetic counteractivity like what is popular in today's refugiums.

 

[picotanker]

i also got one of those plastic plant inserts at walmart but i havent cut it yet for the cord from the power head or for the thermometer, i was going to use an airstone but iam putting this right by my bead so i think the air stone bubbling would be too loud at night, what did you dose for your vase with? iam haveing a problem with low PH that i just found out so i gess iam going to have to use a buffer of some kind just not sure how i would dose in sutch a small container?, and how did you put the LR in your vase and keep it stabel so it dident fall over?

thanks again brandon

 

[brandon4291]

great questions, forgot about that. For other dosers, you'll have to test. But not for C-balance from

www.marinedepot.com (or any other place that sells C-Balance from Two Little Fishies Inc...)

THis is the one I usually prescribe ( ) because I've used it for years in pico's without testing. These prescriptions can be a dangerous thing to promote without testing, but it will be accurate if:
-You are dealing with a pico water volume of about 1-1.5 gallons, the average size of these bowls.
-Your waterchange water is from RO or distilled sources that don't add extra buffers through hard-water issues. The ph-drops I've noted to get at these dosing angles are a result of the natural buffers in the synthetic salts being used up by metabolic processes in the aged pico reef that cause your pH shifts. If you are already seeing this, I say you are aged enough to start the dosing.
-And, you must feed lightly and clean thoroughly to avoid pockets of waste that further degrade water quality and generate more waste acids...
-You are using reefcrystals or a comparable-makeup brand with similar Calcium/Alk averages per water change
-I had problems with rocks falling, I just used large pieces that had that puzzle-piece quality to them and was careful not to bump it.

Dosing for a reefbowl, full of rocks and coral:
Monday, Wed, Fri 1/2 capfull Part A, Calcium liquid added slowly in the morning before lights on into the high-flow area of the tank.

Tues, Thurs, Sat, Part B, same time of the morning, same amount. Add slowly, can cause precipitation if added too quickly or if too much is added.

Do weekly water changes ideally, bi-weekly if you have a very strong hold over the bioloading and feeding of the system (no mobile inverts that require extra feeding like crabs, for example). Even a coral-only system needs feed input, but far less than systems using shrimps or crabs in the display. Wait one day to begin dosing (a water change typically reveals strong calcium and alk measures until after a day or so, when your acids begin binding ions again) after a water change. Just resume the next morning.

This dosing system is sufficient to stop your pH issues immediately and will grow stony corals just fine. You must add in the mornings, I've stripped flesh off stony corals by dosing in the afternoon, when pH is highest due to photosynthetically-removed CO2 gas from the water.

If you are getting minor pH swings but your tank isn't stocked completely, don't use 1/2 cap yet, use roughly 1/4th until your stocking density increases. The key is to stay under precipitation maximums for calcium and to stay under pH maximums of about 8.2-8.3 for your alk dosers.

Let us know how it goes and get a pic soon@!
B